hydrofoil or trim tabs or both??

SparkieBoat

Captain
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Aug 17, 2009
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3,643
Re: hydrofoil or trim tabs or both??

just an update..I was not using this boat until salt water fishing started to pick up..so first time i had to test run with the foil...much faster plane with less bow rise, very little proposing now..I am fairly happy with the foil for $59...still have not sold a boat..still waiting for money for trim tabs. I am sure they will make a big difference.
 

chriscraft254

Commander
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Jun 4, 2011
Messages
2,445
Re: hydrofoil or trim tabs or both??

just an update..I was not using this boat until salt water fishing started to pick up..so first time i had to test run with the foil...much faster plane with less bow rise, very little proposing now..I am fairly happy with the foil for $59...still have not sold a boat..still waiting for money for trim tabs. I am sure they will make a big difference.

I'm happy for you that the hydrofoil helped, but, you can check out this link to see why hydrofoils are not a good idea.http://www.nauticusinc.com/pdf/nauticus_smart_tabs_tech_info.pdf

They put added stress on your outdrive and you are basically raising the stern with the motor instead of the extended hull surface that the tabs provide. They also effect steering negatively. Not to mention you will lose top end. Read the link I provided, its good information for anyone who owns a boat. Smart tabs or helm controlled tabs will outperform hydrofoils. I installed smart tabs and they are the best upgrade I made to my boat. Hands down! The smart tabs for your boat would probably be in the $125.00 range and they take about 45 minutes to install.
 

guy74

Senior Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Jul 12, 2007
Messages
794
Re: hydrofoil or trim tabs or both??

I am very happy with my SE300 foil that I run on my boat. No loss of top speed, much less bow rise, and it seems to direct the thrust of the prop down on takeoff to pull the skiier up much better. On my setup, the foil is on top of the water at speed, so no real issues with high speed handling. My $.02, I like my foil, and wouldn't even consider tabs on my hull.
 

QC

Supreme Mariner
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Mar 22, 2005
Messages
22,783
Re: hydrofoil or trim tabs or both??

Please review post #15. ondarvr has made a compelling case for proper Hydrofoil application.
 

JimS123

Fleet Admiral
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Jul 27, 2007
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8,256
Re: hydrofoil or trim tabs or both??

you can check out this link to see why hydrofoils are not a good idea.

They put added stress on your outdrive and you are basically raising the stern with the motor instead of the extended hull surface that the tabs provide. They also effect steering negatively. Not to mention you will lose top end. Read the link I provided, its good information for anyone who owns a boat.

Totally self-serving article loaded with half truths. Do you think the Trim Tab companies would post data that shows how good their competitor's product is?

Foils will improve steering and increase speed if applied right.

I agree that post #15 above is a good reference. But then again it doesn't matter what I say. Most of my boats are equipped with DoelFins and since they meet my requirements that's all that matters.
 

79Merc80

Senior Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Nov 22, 2007
Messages
673
Re: hydrofoil or trim tabs or both??

I had a Glastron GS 160 that has a stepped hull. Good news was it was very fast, bad news was as I accellerated, I would hit a wall at about 17MPH, another 200 RPM and the step broke free and it shot up to 30. Drop the RPM 200 and it would drop back down to 17 MPH. Tried the foil, didn't really help anything ( With the step hull, you are actually dragging a little water with you until air can get far enough down to release it, then you fly). I have a friend that had an old Larson with one of the first Volvo-Penta outdrives. It was really underpowered. His top speed was inbetween the 17 MPH and 30 MPH that my boat would do, so, I could either stay behind and go through the fuel, or walk away from them. The boat also had a handling problem in reverse. There was no steering control, once the boat started to turn it would just spin around the engine and if I tried to correct it, the boat would travel sideways and then spin the other direction.

I installed the Smart Tabs and not only was I able to stay with my friend's boat, but I actually had directional control in reverse. Best thing I ever did to that boat.

Craig
 

chriscraft254

Commander
Joined
Jun 4, 2011
Messages
2,445
Re: hydrofoil or trim tabs or both??

Totally self-serving article loaded with half truths. Do you think the Trim Tab companies would post data that shows how good their competitor's product is?

Foils will improve steering and increase speed if applied right.

I agree that post #15 above is a good reference. But then again it doesn't matter what I say. Most of my boats are equipped with DoelFins and since they meet my requirements that's all that matters.

Here we go! What exactly is a half truth anyway,lol Seriously,what did you think wasn't true?
I'm very happy for you that you are happy with your doelfins, but imo, tabs out perform them on a wider scale of performance.

Got a question, exactly how do you think a hydrofoil can be adjusted? There somewhat sized to a boat. Big little or small. Which one is right for your boat as to not cause to much lift or not enough? Get what I'm saying? The foils are bolt on and go.

We all don't have to agree, but I'm still curious on what you think was a half truth (whatever that is) on the link I provided. Imo, I think foils are fine for low powered motors, but can be dangerous on a high powered motors.

Have you tried any type of tabs on your doelfin equiped boats? Or are you just basing your experience on what you have? Just curious, because most people that I have seen go from a hyrofoil to trim tabs appreciate the upgrade to the trim tabs.

And to answer your question, I have never really heard nauticus, bennett or lenco put down another companies or there product, they just explain the pros and cons imo.
 

QC

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Mar 22, 2005
Messages
22,783
Re: hydrofoil or trim tabs or both??

Got a question, exactly how do you think a hydrofoil can be adjusted?
With an OB it can . . . an I/O it can't. Listen I am a hydrofoil hater, but that doesn't mean I'm right. Please read post #15 and drop it. Thanks.
 

JimS123

Fleet Admiral
Joined
Jul 27, 2007
Messages
8,256
Re: hydrofoil or trim tabs or both??

Here we go! What exactly is a half truth anyway,lol Seriously,what did you think wasn't true?
I'm very happy for you that you are happy with your doelfins, but imo, tabs out perform them on a wider scale of performance.

Got a question, exactly how do you think a hydrofoil can be adjusted? There somewhat sized to a boat. Big little or small. Which one is right for your boat as to not cause to much lift or not enough? Get what I'm saying? The foils are bolt on and go.

We all don't have to agree, but I'm still curious on what you think was a half truth (whatever that is) on the link I provided. Imo, I think foils are fine for low powered motors, but can be dangerous on a high powered motors.

Have you tried any type of tabs on your doelfin equiped boats? Or are you just basing your experience on what you have? Just curious, because most people that I have seen go from a hyrofoil to trim tabs appreciate the upgrade to the trim tabs.

And to answer your question, I have never really heard nauticus, bennett or lenco put down another companies or there product, they just explain the pros and cons imo.

First of all, I have never said anything bad about trim tabs. I concur with all the good things that people report.

My objection is to the total negativity that "some" people have for fins. IMHO (based on 45+ years boating experience and 25+ years of experience with fins) fins are a tremendous product and can solve many problems at low cost without drilling all those holes in the transom. Drill holes in the nmotor and find you don't like it and you don't have to worry about rot. Problems with anti-vent. plates breaking off and poor handling are overblown....simply because not all applications are set up correctly.

In the past I've published reprints of magazine articles demonstrating the benefits of fins. Obviously, if fins are all that bad they companies that manufacture them would have been driven out of business long ago.

I've also stated in the past that I run BOTH tabs and a fin on one of my boats and what a sweet ride that is!
 

inthedirtagain

Petty Officer 1st Class
Joined
Aug 10, 2011
Messages
321
Re: hydrofoil or trim tabs or both??

I, too, just installed a SE300 foil on my outboard. Haven't had a chance to drop in the water yet, but I'm hoping for good results. Bottomline is this: I have 45yr old boat and O/B. Any serious $$$ spent will be in the form of repower with tilt/trim and electric jackplate. That's "if" I decide to keep the boat another year. I don't see any problem experimenting with lower-cost alternatives if it achieves the desired outcome. Worst-case scenario is that we (foil purchasers) are out $50 and 4 holes drilled. Jeesh, the whole tabs vs foil argument is as bad as Chevy vs Dodge vs Ford, and some of the comments are just as ridiculous! Use what you want to use, but don't bash those of us who actually like to test and tune, and want to try and save a buck in the process.
 

HT32BSX115

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Dec 8, 2005
Messages
10,083
Re: hydrofoil or trim tabs or both??

Jeesh, the whole tabs vs foil argument is as bad as Chevy vs Dodge vs Ford,

Um.....No, it's not ........ Because a Chevy, Ford and Dodge will do essentially the same thing.......

Smart TABS are fixed, NON-(cockpit) adjustable, meaning they are just spring loaded and you can adjust them to work well at slow speeds AND you have NO roll control.

They will help with slow speed planing, but because they cannot be adjusted out at high speed (unless you stop and adjust them out) they'll ALWAYS increase drag and reduce top speed.

Bennett Tabs are fully, individually adjustable at ALL speeds and you can completely take them out of the picture at ANY speed especially high speeds where they would reduce your top speed.

I/O's have adjustable drives where you can make limited trim adjustments. An added fin would add more drag to the drive but it would be like having (adjustable) tabs at slow speeds........ but if touching the water at high speeds, they would increase the drag and reduce top speed.....

The ultimate setup would be an outboard with an adjustable jack-plate with hydraulic trim and Bennett Tabs because you can adjust EVERYTHING. (and better than an I/O because you can control height of the drive in the water)

Not all of us can afford the ultimate setup though so we compromise....... (and hope what we did, wasn't a waste of money!!)

AND if Mercury, Evinrude, Tohatsu, Scott Atwater, Lauson or Briggs & Stratton thought "Whale-tails" etc were a good idea, they'd offer them as optional "equipment"! It should be obvious that they DON"T!



ymmv.......


Rick
B3.gif
 

ondarvr

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Apr 6, 2005
Messages
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Re: hydrofoil or trim tabs or both??

AND if Mercury, Evinrude, Tohatsu, Scott Atwater, Lauson or Briggs & Stratton thought "Whale-tails" etc were a good idea, they'd offer them as optional "equipment"! It should be obvious that they DON"T!



They actually do come with them, and they're built in, just not as large.

Hydraulic Jackplates, adjustable tabs and an assortment of SS props is a much better way to acheive the best performance than bolting on a foil, but, most people can't justify spending that kind of money, so foils get purchased.

A foil is sort of a poor man's adjustable jackplate, but most people try to use them in place of tabs, which is for the most part, a mistake.
 
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HT32BSX115

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Dec 8, 2005
Messages
10,083
Re: hydrofoil or trim tabs or both??

If you copy/paste the text inside the "[QUOTE.]right here!![/QUOTE.]" It will work better!:D


A foil is sort of a poor man's adjustable jackplate, but most people try to use them in place of tabs, which is for the most part, a mistake.


Well yeah, you're right! It will work if the OB engine is installed ON an adjustable-jackplate but if you put a foil on a NON-adjustable engine it's a gamble whether it will help or NOT.

It just might make things worse.........

But if you have an adjustable engine to start with, you probably wouldn't need the foil in the first place...........

Hey, do you ever go to the WAC shows in Monroe?
 

chriscraft254

Commander
Joined
Jun 4, 2011
Messages
2,445
Re: hydrofoil or trim tabs or both??

Um.....No, it's not ........ Because a Chevy, Ford and Dodge will do essentially the same thing.......

Smart TABS are fixed, NON-(cockpit) adjustable, meaning they are just spring loaded and you can adjust them to work well at slow speeds AND you have NO roll control.
Think you need to do a little more research on what smart tabs do. They are not fixed tabs, they are self adjusting tabs. Smart tabs are not spring loaded, they are controlled by gas actuators. They were designed to be self adjusting for many reasons that are benificial, not unbenificial. Smart tabs will actually as you put it control "roll" better than any of them because of the self adjusting. Now, if you meant to say a severe "lean" caused by uneven load balance or sea conditions, regular tabs can be adjusted more severely to adjust for that condition...

They will help with slow speed planing, but because they cannot be adjusted out at high speed (unless you stop and adjust them out) they'll ALWAYS increase drag and reduce top speed.

Smart tabs self adjust to an up position when on a plane, they are valved to relax when on plane as to not cause drag but still give stability/performance. They are guaranteed by the company to give you gains at top speed of 2 to 4 mph. I personally gained 4 to 5 mph after installing the smart tabs. These tabs will improve performance in alot more ways than you think, like, like faster planing, lower planing speeds, more speed in any rmp range, eliminate chine walk and porpoising, give you a better more balanced/ boat attitude even in quartering seas.

Bennett Tabs are fully, individually adjustable at ALL speeds and you can completely take them out of the picture at ANY speed especially high speeds where they would reduce your top speed

They also cause drag, inconsistant ride, and effect fuel consumption in a negative way, if not adjusted properly by the operator correctly. They can be dangerous on a small high speed boat if the operator adjusts them the wrong way at the wrong time.

I/O's have adjustable drives where you can make limited trim adjustments. An added fin would add more drag to the drive but it would be like having (adjustable) tabs at slow speeds........ but if touching the water at high speeds, they would increase the drag and reduce top speed.....
Other than some lift they provide, Hydrofoils are nothing like self adjusting tabs.

The ultimate setup would be an outboard with an adjustable jack-plate with hydraulic trim and Bennett Tabs because you can adjust EVERYTHING. (and better than an I/O because you can control height of the drive in the water)
That is simply your opinion. I say it depends on the size of the boat and what it is used for.

Not all of us can afford the ultimate setup though so we compromise....... (and hope what we did, wasn't a waste of money!!)
Plenty of people that buy these cheaper products can afford whatever they want. There is a lot of reasons that people buy the cheaper products.

AND if Mercury, Evinrude, Tohatsu, Scott Atwater, Lauson or Briggs & Stratton thought "Whale-tails" etc were a good idea, they'd offer them as optional "equipment"! It should be obvious that they DON"T!

ymmv.......

:):):eek:
 
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HT32BSX115

Supreme Mariner
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Messages
10,083
Re: hydrofoil or trim tabs or both??

Hmm good sales pitch!

By "FIXED" I meant FIXED adjustment. (non-operator controlled)

They also cause drag, inconsistant ride, and effect fuel consumption in a negative way, if not adjusted properly by the operator correctly.

AND "Smart" Tabs don't cause drag and affect fuel consumption in a negative way?

ALL tabs will produce drag if touching the water at any speed.

And drag will increase as the square of velocity...... which means FIXED pressure tabs (fixed gas pressure is equivalent to fixed spring pressure) will also cause drag at any speed. The gas cyls they use with the tabs produce damping in the movement of the tabs but still apply a down pressure at all times keeping the tabs in contact with the water.

I will not get into an discussion of the benefits of fixed (pressure) tabs vs fully adjustable tabs. But no amount of marketing hype will convince me that that the laws of Physics (and Hydrodynamics) , can be circumvented.

ALL TABS produce drag if they touch the water. The drag is less or (IN-) significant at low speed where the "Smart" Tabs effectively help produce lift.

But because they cannot adjusted out of the water at higher speeds, the drag WILL reduce top speed and increase fuel consumption at higher speeds...... It's an acceptable engineering tradeoff, but a tradeoff nonetheless.
 

QC

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Mar 22, 2005
Messages
22,783
Re: hydrofoil or trim tabs or both??

Smart tabs will actually as you put it control "roll" better than any of them because of the self adjusting. Now, if you meant to say a severe "lean" caused by uneven load balance or sea conditions, regular tabs can be adjusted more severely to adjust for that condition...
SmartTabs may control the rate of "roll" as you put it. But they do not control any lateral side to side movement in any dynamic way.

Smart tabs self adjust to an up position when on a plane, they are valved to relax when on plane as to not cause drag but still give stability/performance.
It is impossible for them to not exert some downward pressure at all speeds or they would never return to the down position.

They are guaranteed by the company to give you gains at top speed of 2 to 4 mph.
That is misleading and why your posts will always receive a serious rebuttal. You cannot simply bolt on SmartTabs and insure 2 - 4 MPH improvement on all boats.

I personally gained 4 to 5 mph after installing the smart tabs.
Awesome, and I believe you. However, your results and your enthusiasm do not translate to the same for all.

These tabs will improve performance in alot more ways than you think, like, like faster planing, lower planing speeds, more speed in any rmp range, eliminate chine walk and porpoising, give you a better more balanced/ boat attitude even in quartering seas.
I agree, but there is not one thing in that list that helm adjustable tabs will not do.
 
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ondarvr

Supreme Mariner
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Apr 6, 2005
Messages
11,527
Re: hydrofoil or trim tabs or both??

For some reason my computer won't always show the quotes correctly.


I go to the shows every now and then, but it can get expensive.


A foil works like a poor mans jackplate because it allows you to raise the motor and not have the prop ventilate, that's it. Does it work as well as a jack plate...no...but it get's you part way there for very few dollars and little effort.

I would never put a jackplate on my boat because that last bit of performance isn't worth the $$$ to me. But I had a foil sitting on the workbench and decided to try it and see what it could do. I gained a few hundred RPM and few MPH for no cost, I did need to do the correct adjustments for it to work though, just bolting it on would have caused more problems than without it.
 

chriscraft254

Commander
Joined
Jun 4, 2011
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2,445
Re: hydrofoil or trim tabs or both??

Hmm good sales pitch!

By "FIXED" I meant FIXED adjustment. (non-operator controlled)

AND "Smart" Tabs don't cause drag and affect fuel consumption in a negative way?

ALL tabs will produce drag if touching the water at any speed.

And drag will increase as the square of velocity...... which means FIXED pressure tabs (fixed gas pressure is equivalent to fixed spring pressure) will also cause drag at any speed. The gas cyls they use with the tabs produce damping in the movement of the tabs but still apply a down pressure at all times keeping the tabs in contact with the water.

I will not get into an discussion of the benefits of fixed (pressure) tabs vs fully adjustable tabs. But no amount of marketing hype will convince me that that the laws of Physics (and Hydrodynamics) , can be circumvented.

ALL TABS produce drag if they touch the water. The drag is less or (IN-) significant at low speed where the "Smart" Tabs effectively help produce lift.

But because they cannot adjusted out of the water at higher speeds, the drag WILL reduce top speed and increase fuel consumption at higher speeds...... It's an acceptable engineering tradeoff, but a tradeoff nonetheless.

You make what sounds like a reasonable point that all tabs cause drag. Well of coarse they do, when they are deployed, but the lift and better operating attitude of the boat is the reason that drag is exceptable. When the boat gets on a plane faster at less rpms it is more efficient to a certain speed. When a boats stern is raised and put in a better forward thrust position, the drag from the tabs is exceptable to a certain speed.

Now, as far as top speed gain, I promise you they work for speed improvement as well. The reason they do work, is because the actuators are valved and relaxed so when on a plane they have just enough pressure left on them to obtain stability improvements from side to side and bow to stern movement.. Like you said, there is a trade off! The stability improvements is what causes the boat to improve speed. Yes, they are still going to deployed up and down when going over uneven waves, which by the way is all the time. But while on a plane the smart tabs drag is minimized with the smart tabs and the trade off is you get better performance in other areas that will in turn increase top end speed. If the boat runs smoother and more stabile across the water, it will go faster than one that doesn't.

The gas valves do not act like springs, springs load up and actually would cause more and more drag, the more they were compressed. These gas actuators are valved and sized to the boat so as you get to a planing speed and the gas actuator is compressed, the relief valve releases pressure as to not drag significantly. The actually operate the opposite of a spring because the do not load up creating more resistance. That is what makes the smart tab smart.

I'm not speaking from there marketing, I'm speaking of what I have experienced from them in the last two years of running them. I can also say, I get alot better fuel efficientcy with the tabs, the fuel savings alone in the last two years have surely paid for the tabs themselves. They do everything that they claim and I have found that most people don't believe it until they have them installed and try them.

I'm not hear to convince you, but I will speak to my experience and knowledge of the product and what it offers so others can make there judgement of what they want to buy to improve there boats performance and efficientcy.

The main reason I purchased them, is because I liked the idea of the tabs self adjusting all the time to the changing conditions, instead of me having to self adjust the helm controls all the time up and down for the changing conditions. I had no idea really that I would see the improvements I have.

Helm controlled tabs have there place, they out perform smart tabs in some areas, but I have said it before, I think smart tabs outperform helm controlled tabs in more areas for smaller boats 26 ft and under...

So I don't get hammered, I am not saying smart tabs are better for all boats or better than helm controlled tabs period. They are simply just better for some boats,some sizes and some uses. .
 

HT32BSX115

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Dec 8, 2005
Messages
10,083
Re: hydrofoil or trim tabs or both??

I am not saying smart tabs are better for all boats or better than helm controlled tabs period. They are simply just better for some boats,some sizes and some uses. .

Actually, you and I are in TOTAL agreement here! ......

I would say that the only place they (sometimes) don't shine is at maximum/high speeds.........I also know that opinions about them are like oil threads and other FOMOCO/GM discussions etc..........some people can get very emotional about it!!! (never anyone here of course;)!! )




For some reason my computer won't always show the quotes correctly.

That may be a Java/JavaScript problem....

Ensure all the updates are done,upgrade your browser .......if you're using I.E get the latest version and ensure all the Windows updates are done......I think Firefox is up to 7.x.x now for Winders ..... (I don't do Windows......I'm using Firefox 7.0.1 on OPENSUSE Linux X64)

And make sure you have the latest Java! http://www.java.com/en/

This entire text window and html editor is a Java Applet so if you don't have the latest "stuff" you can sometimes get all sorts of strange errors......
 

inthedirtagain

Petty Officer 1st Class
Joined
Aug 10, 2011
Messages
321
Re: hydrofoil or trim tabs or both??

so much for a polite request. If it works for me, fine. If not, its only $50 bucks. I think I'll stay out of the rest of this conversation. Some just don't know when to quit!
 
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