I may have bit off more than I can chew!

[crazymofo]

Hello, first time poster here. I recently picked up a 1987 Century 4500 cuddy cabin for what I thought was a low enough price that if things didn't work out I could part it and the trailer to break even. Its a pretty nice boat to replace the one I'm going to loose in the divorce that is upcoming so I had to start with what I could also afford!

So here's my problem... It needs an interior from transom to cuddy. It was removed to restore the floor. So I have been researching this forum for other floor replacements and have a good idea of what I'm getting into so that part isn't to bad. Today I start tearing into the floor removal and even though I'm finding more than what I expected to find when it comes to rotted flooring what I'm also seeing is Carpenter ant infestation! Now they all seem to be dead now but it looks like they've done a real number on some of this wood! It looks like I'm going to have to replace some of the foam now as well because after chipping into it to chase down if they might be still living in there I'm finding water close to the bottom. Now I've read some of the other postings but there are so many honestly I may have missed a few so here is my first few official questions...

Do I need to replace all the foam that is wet or will this thing eventually dry out over this summer?
How can I tell if the foam is wet underneath what I can see?
How much foam does it take to fill?

It looks like my boating season is done for this season anyways so I'll just spend my time to repair this thing for the next one.

 

[Trooper82]

Re: I may have bit off more than I can chew!

Welcome to Iboats...the foam will not dry...and you can make a hole saw from a piece of pvc pipe to take a coring of the foam....you should also drill some holes on the lowest section of the transom and stringers to check for wet or rotten wood....others wil chime in with advice....got any pics?

 

[laurentide]

Re: I may have bit off more than I can chew!

I'm pretty certain that carpenter ants only attack compromised (rotten) wood, so it's likely that you've got some rot somewhere, probably a bunch if you had a colony in the boat.

 

[Bkarb]

Re: I may have bit off more than I can chew!

Set us up with some pics of what ya got the boat inside outside everything your working on ect. The more pics you give us the better the help that can be offered to you
Keep your chin up friend there is plenty of good people on here to guide you threw your project you ll get there

 

[Decker83]

Re: I may have bit off more than I can chew!

Like the others have said. It can be fixed..

The answer to your question is It must all come out.. Wet foam will not dry out.. You will find rotten wood in the hull.
You will need to do a complete restore to make this boat safe and right..

With alot of hard work (and I do mean alot of hard work) and some cash it can be done and better than the manufacture did it..
Welcome to the dry dock..

 

[crazymofo]

Re: I may have bit off more than I can chew!

Ok, I will attempt to take some pics tomorrow but today I was taking the opportunity to get started. Yes there is wood rot and basically its stringers and bulk head. So I started starboard side of the floor after I spent 2 hours draining the gas out of the tank. Good news there, I pulled out almost 35 gallons so at my local price of $3.60 a gallon that's $120+! As for the floor, after pulling the tank and removing the plywood I could see the stringer and it was soaked and black so its junk. I new the bulkhead was going to need repair so I cut from it to the front cabin but found good solid dry wood about foot from that bulkhead so I'll piece in from that point. I have noticed though that It looks I need to go deeper! It looks like the fuel tank was actually sitting on a platform and it is actually slightly above the hull center? I'll make sure I add that pic to clarify tomorrow. About 4 hours to remove almost all the foam on that side and the stringer so maybe by Wednesday I'll have both sides ready for replacement! Check back tomorrow!

 

[mxcobra]

Re: I may have bit off more than I can chew!

you are going to need to go so deep it will be painfull! get a grinder , chizal and hammer then remove everything until you have a nice clean hull, then put it all back.....

 

[biglurr54]

Re: I may have bit off more than I can chew!

I made a mistak removing my foam by not getting it all out. I was pretty tired of chipping and digging so i rushed through it at the end. I think the small thin layer the is left is filled up with water and even though it was a thin layer it has added a bunch of weight. While replacing my transom i realized that a wire wheel takes the foam right down and quick. Wear a resperator and protective eye wear as it fly everywhere.

chisel out as much as you can and get it to about an inch or less of foam and then hit it with a wire wheel in a drill. It will pull it out of all the small nooks and crannies better than you can with a chisel. Ive also heard pressure washing works.

Do it right the first time. i have to pull everything back out this fall and wire wheel the thin layer out. It may seems tedious while doing it but not as tedious as doing the job twice.

 

[crazymofo]

Re: I may have bit off more than I can chew!

Well I have been thinking about the boat today at work and here's a thought on pulling ALL the foam out. I have a section about 6-8" wide between a second set of stringers that seems to be not only dry but ant free so I'll look into it more but I'm thinking that will stay. I will be going all the way to the transom but if that needs repair I'm kinda loosing out in this project. But, to keep my hopes up it also looks like the ants have kept their Activities to that side of the boat and the water damage as well from a leaky top in that rear corner!

 

[crazymofo]

Re: I may have bit off more than I can chew!

Ok so I came home and took some pictures of where I left off and now cant seem to post them so I'm uploading them to Photobucket and posting the link. Check them out and let me know what you think.

jeepfreekguy's Story by jeepfreekguy | Photobucket

 

[sheboyganjohn]

Re: I may have bit off more than I can chew!

I would suggest before you go any further, pull the engine and take all the measurements for the motor mounts, and then have a the rest of it. If you are rotten in the middle with the stringers, they are rotten all the way back.

 

[crazymofo]

Re: I may have bit off more than I can chew!

You could be right but all of that area looks like it was glassed better or possibly repaired before. I have the service manager of my local Marina stopping by this week to check my progress and give me his opinion on it. I also don't really know what to do about that area under the fuel cell? It's evidently part of the stringer attachment but is above the actual "V" center of the hull and in my opinion wasn't holding the stringer to the hull between them? It also looks to me like the stringers are made of 1/2" plywood and not 3/4" that I've seen looking at a few others?

 

[sheboyganjohn]

Re: I may have bit off more than I can chew!

The only real way to tell if the motor mounts, transom and rear stringer are solid is to do a drill test.

 

[crazymofo]

Re: I may have bit off more than I can chew!

Ok, I have a few questions that I know have probably been addressed on other threads but with the quantity of them I'm sure I'll never be able to find what I'm looking for.

First off is after I watch Friscoboater make his "peanut butter" I have to ask why not just use short strand fiberglass filler like this?
3M Dynatron Dyna-Glass? Short Strand Filler at West Marine

2. Is there a way to prevent a future issue with the foam collecting water? I know that the decking once covered will do most of that for me but as a curiosity I was thinking there might be something I'm overlooking?

3. I know that the foam is going to be crucial in maintaining hull integrity in the long run but is there a way to build in some floor storage with out compromising it to much? I was very fortunate to have tons of storage on my last boat and after having this one down now to the hull I'm starting to wonder where I'm going to store stuff like my bumpers, sandbar anchors and empty beercans! all those went in my last boats ski storage and this one hasn't got one? I know this question is off topic and far down the road but I was thinking that it might need a little planning now to prepare for.

4. I know its my boat and I can do what I want with it but would there be advantages like strength or longevity in installing smaller bulkheads along the sides? This would create smaller chambers and add rigidity to that long stringer length I think? They wont be able to be foamed unless I create small "false floors" to allow me to fill small amounts into? It might give me what I need for my last question and not sacrifice anything in the end maybe?

5. Has any body added anything like a conduit under there decking so as to run things like speaker wires or accessory wiring from one side of the boat to the other? Again, the last boat had its original radio remote control installed under the decking so when it went bad all I could do is put in a radio and leave the old remote in the drivers console and cut the wires because they where not only under the floor but I swear were glassed in! Why cant I take a bit of that PEX water piping in say a 3/4" or 1" and lay it from side to side along the top of the front bulkhead to under the gunwall on both sides so you could "Fish" (LOL, pun intended) speaker cables, power wires and the like from one side to the other? The stuff can be bent using a heat gun if I'm correct so there wouldn't be anything to hang up on to push a wire through. Its made for water so shouldn't be affected in a marine environment. It should be easily hidden under a bit of carpet as it exits the floor and follows the sidewall and bulkhead junction. Just another thought for down the road that's all.

6. Absolutely my last question for now I hope. In regards to the floor over the fuel cell. Can I just lay my decking over it from port to starboard and just use those pry or screw floor panels to access the sending unit and fill or breather lines? It would give me less panels to cut, less seams to fill and a smoother looking floor. The last floor actually had an entire panel from front bulkhead to rear bulkhead that was just laid onto the tank with small wood braces along the side and top of the tank so as not to crush it and allow access to remove the fuel cell but how often would you have to service an aluminum tank and for what reason?

 

[Woodonglass]

Re: I may have bit off more than I can chew!

Ok, I have a few questions that I know have probably been addressed on other threads but with the quantity of them I'm sure I'll never be able to find what I'm looking for.

First off is after I watch Friscoboater make his "peanut butter" I have to ask why not just use short strand fiberglass filler like this?
3M Dynatron Dyna-Glass? Short Strand Filler at West Marine You can but making your own is a lot less expensive and you have the added benefit of being able to adjust mix to meet your needs, thicker or thinner.

2. Is there a way to prevent a future issue with the foam collecting water? I know that the decking once covered will do most of that for me but as a curiosity I was thinking there might be something I'm overlooking? Nope it's the nature of the beast. Foam if left immersed in water long enuf will eventually break down and absorb it. Some takes longer than others.

3. I know that the foam is going to be crucial in maintaining hull integrity in the long run but is there a way to build in some floor storage with out compromising it to much? I was very fortunate to have tons of storage on my last boat and after having this one down now to the hull I'm starting to wonder where I'm going to store stuff like my bumpers, sandbar anchors and empty beercans! all those went in my last boats ski storage and this one hasn't got one? I know this question is off topic and far down the road but I was thinking that it might need a little planning now to prepare for. You could build a "Ski Locker" into your existing hull. The loss of 8-10 cubic ft of flotation foam is not going to seriously compromise your hull in any way.

4. I know its my boat and I can do what I want with it but would there be advantages like strength or longevity in installing smaller bulkheads along the sides? This would create smaller chambers and add rigidity to that long stringer length I think? They wont be able to be foamed unless I create small "false floors" to allow me to fill small amounts into? It might give me what I need for my last question and not sacrifice anything in the end maybe? I don't see the need or benefit but as you say...It's your boat!!!!

5. Has any body added anything like a conduit under there decking so as to run things like speaker wires or accessory wiring from one side of the boat to the other? Again, the last boat had its original radio remote control installed under the decking so when it went bad all I could do is put in a radio and leave the old remote in the drivers console and cut the wires because they where not only under the floor but I swear were glassed in! Why cant I take a bit of that PEX water piping in say a 3/4" or 1" and lay it from side to side along the top of the front bulkhead to under the gunwall on both sides so you could "Fish" (LOL, pun intended) speaker cables, power wires and the like from one side to the other? The stuff can be bent using a heat gun if I'm correct so there wouldn't be anything to hang up on to push a wire through. Its made for water so shouldn't be affected in a marine environment. It should be easily hidden under a bit of carpet as it exits the floor and follows the sidewall and bulkhead junction. Just another thought for down the road that's all. Yeah why couldn't you. Sound like a winner to me!!

6. Absolutely my last question for now I hope. In regards to the floor over the fuel cell. Can I just lay my decking over it from port to starboard and just use those pry or screw floor panels to access the sending unit and fill or breather lines? It would give me less panels to cut, less seams to fill and a smoother looking floor. The last floor actually had an entire panel from front bulkhead to rear bulkhead that was just laid onto the tank with small wood braces along the side and top of the tank so as not to crush it and allow access to remove the fuel cell but how often would you have to service an aluminum tank and for what reason? If you clean your tank well, paint it with anticorrosive and then install deck plates for access to the sending units etc. I think your plan is sound.

My opinions are in red above.

 

[JASinIL2006]

Re: I may have bit off more than I can chew!

I like your idea of installing conduit or some sort of chase for wire runs, etc. Sound like a good idea.

 

[crazymofo]

Re: I may have bit off more than I can chew!

Ok, I'm starting to question about the cost of this project! My "self estimate" from running the price of wood and carpet and taking a swag on the rest was between $700-900? If your telling me a gallon of the 3M Dyna-glass at $78 a gallon is to expensive than how much materials and haw far off am I on this project! Now I will admit that this project is as out of my normal projects but I have been repairing fiberglass on my dune buggies and cars and using it for other projects since I was 15 and I'm 43 now so laying in some wood, laying over some glass fiber and dropping in some foam doesn't intimidate me as labor but the cost may sure give me a heart attack!

Be gentle and break the bad news to me slowly in a way that I can cope with it!
To help I have an opening in this boat that needs a floor and that floor measures out to 11'x8' roughly. I was thinking 3 sheets marine grade 3/4" for the floor at first but it only used 1/2" so I can reduce my cost there from the original $90 a sheet down to $69 a sheet. now that's not much savings so I'll probably stick with 3/4" for $270. The stringers will take another 1 and the bulkheads 1 more for 5 sheets total at $450 and I should have plenty for my additional bulkheads for the storage compartments left over. If I add another $250 in fiberglass supplies (because I really can't imagine it costing more than that) which should include about 2 gallons of resin at $50 a gallon, chop strand mat at about $50, 20 yards of 6oz tape for seams at $75 and the rest in hardware. That's only $750 and if I add my customary 20% for safety that should bring my floor only to about $900. Add carpet and I can squeak away for maybe $1100 total right? Crap forgot the foam! How do I account for how much foam is needed so I can add that to the cost? I took out almost 8 contractor bags out of this thing!

 

[jbcurt00]

Re: I may have bit off more than I can chew!

I suspect your revised # is off by more then half. $2500 is probably a more realistic #.

From US Comp, my glass supplies will run $700 +/- for JUST: fiberglass (CSM & 1708), 15gal resin (2 is not going to get you even close), a few types of filler (used as thickeners, for different purposes) 2 metal bubble buster rollers, and hazmat shipping. And that's for a typical 15' runabout, not a cuddy cabin.

 

[Woodonglass]

Re: I may have bit off more than I can chew!

You really need to look at the first link in my signature below. It explains how to correctly glass Decks and stringers. What are the dimensions of your stringers? Your estimates for the amount of glass and resin are greatly underestimated, IMO. 1 gallon of resin will wet out about 4 yards of CSM. It will take approx 4 gallons of resin to apply one layer of CSM to the bottom of your decking, and you'll need 1 to 2 more layers on the top of the deck. You still need resin and fillers for filleting material and for all the CSM and the Biaxial Cloth to Attach and cover the Stringers. A typical 16 ft boat with 3-4 Stringers with a average stinger height of 6" and average Deck sq. ft. of 60 sq. ft will need 10 gallons of resin, 20 yards of CSM and 10 yds of 1708 Biax to do the stringers and deck. If you do the Transom you would add 5 gallons and 5 yds.

This might help...
(Click the icon below to open/view the PDF File)

 

[chconger]

Re: I may have bit off more than I can chew!

A typical 16 ft boat with 3-4 Stringers with a average stinger height of 6" and average Deck sq. ft. of 60 sq. ft will need 10 gallons of resin, 20 yards of CSM and 10 yds of 1708 Biax to do the stringers and deck. If you do the Transom you would add 5 gallons and 5 yds.

OK sitting here eating my lunch and having a heart attack thinking about where I am about to go with the Glastron. I see why you recommend poly.

Cheers
Chris