I SEE why our guys are getting killed now

Kenneth Brown

Captain
Joined
Feb 3, 2003
Messages
3,481
This angers the bejesus out of me. I believe in fair and humane treatment of all people. I believe in respect. What respect you give is what you get, don't give none, damnn sure don't expect none. I say promote this man even further, give him the full bird bars. What am I rambling about? Read on.<br /><br />By Rowan Scarborough<br />THE WASHINGTON TIMES<br /><br />The Army has filed a criminal assault charge against an American officer who coerced an Iraqi into providing information that foiled a planned attack on U.S. soldiers. <br />Lt. Col. Allen B. West says he did not physically abuse the detainee, but used psychological pressure by twice firing his service weapon away from the Iraqi. After the shots were fired, the detainee, an Iraqi police officer, gave up the information on a planned attack around the northern Iraqi town of Saba al Boor. <br />But the Army is taking a dim view of the interrogation tactic. An Army official at the Pentagon confirmed to The Washington Times yesterday that Col. West has been charged with one count of aggravated assault. A military source said an Article 32 hearing has been scheduled in Iraq that could lead to the Army court-martialing Col. West and sending him to prison for a maximum term of eight years. <br />Some soldiers are privately questioning the Army's drive to punish the officer for an interrogation technique that likely is used regularly to get information from terrorists. <br />Col. West's unit in Iraq operates amid extreme danger. Fighters loyal to ousted Iraqi dictator Saddam Hussein are poised at any moment to kill the soldiers in ambushes using explosive devices, guns and rocket-propelled grenades. <br />Col. West, 42, says he pressured the Iraqi after taking into account the dangerous environment and the risk to his soldiers' lives. <br />In response to an e-mail from The Times, Col. West, a 19-year veteran, gave his version of events. <br />Col. West is a member of the 4th Infantry, the Fort Hood, Texas, division occupying areas around Tikrit, Saddam's hometown and an area infested with loyalists of the former regime. <br />An informant reported that there was an assassination plot against Col. West, an artillery officer working with the local governing council in Saba al Boor. On Aug. 16, guerrillas attacked members of the colonel's unit who were on their way to Saba al Boor. <br />An informant told the soldiers that one person involved in the attack was a town policeman. Col. West sent two sergeants to detain the policeman, who was placed in a detention center near the Taji air base. The interrogators had no luck at first, so Col. West decided to take over the questioning. <br />"I asked for soldiers to accompany me and told them we had to gather information and that it could get ugly," Col. West said in his e-mail. <br />He said his soldiers "physically aggress[ed]" the prisoner. A subsequent investigation resulted in nonjudicial punishment for them in the form of fines. <br />After the physical "aggress" failed, Col. West says he brandished his pistol. <br />"I did use my 9 mm weapon to threaten him and fired it twice. Once I fired into the weapons clearing barrel outside the facility alone, and the next time I did it while having his head close to the barrel. I fired away from him. I stood in between the firing and his person. <br />"I admit that what I did was not right but it was done with the concern of the safety of my soldiers and myself." <br />Col. West said he informed his superior of his actions. The incident lay dormant until the Army conducted an overall command-climate investigation of the brigade. The investigation turned up the interrogation technique, and Col. West was charged with one count of aggravated assault. <br />Col. West said the gunshots spurred the Iraqi to provide the location of the planned sniper attack and the names of three guerrilla fighters. <br />Col. West says the 4th Infantry's staff judge advocate, the unit's prosecutor, is offering him two choices: resign short of gaining retirement benefits or face court-martial. <br />Article 128 of the Uniform Code of Military Justice describes assault in these terms: "Any person subject to this chapter who attempts or offers with unlawful force or violence to do bodily harm to another person, whether or not the attempt or offer is consummated, is guilty of assault and shall be punished as a court-martial may direct." <br />The Army relieved Col. West of his battalion command and has placed him in the 173rd Airborne Brigade, which is attached to the 4th Infantry in Kirkuk. <br />Said his wife, Angela, who lives in Fort Hood: "My husband is a top-of-the-line officer. My husband is an African-American. He has had to overcome a number of things to get where he is." <br />"I accept being retired at the grade of major and paying whatever fine required, but resignation and prison seems an attempt to destroy me," Col. West says. "All I wish is to go away, re-establish my family and retain some of my dignity." <br /><br />Call your congressman and Senator and demand that these charges be dropped! They gave Jessica Lynch medals, movie and book rights, and 80% disability for being a screwup! True heros get F>>Ked by the Army!
 

SpinnerBait_Nut

Honorary Moderator Emeritus
Joined
Aug 25, 2002
Messages
17,651
Re: I SEE why our guys are getting killed now

Amen on the Jessica Lynch stuff.<br />Man that is right here close to home and you should see all the stuff on local TV about her.<br /><br />What about all the one's in her division that died.<br /><br />Nothing said.
 

jim phillips

Chief Petty Officer
Joined
May 11, 2003
Messages
504
Re: I SEE why our guys are getting killed now

This is why we keep losing so many of our kids and just cant seem to get the job done. If they ( our goverment )wont let us win then we need to come home.
 

rodbolt

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Sep 1, 2003
Messages
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Re: I SEE why our guys are getting killed now

Hello<br /> I cannot disagree with you more. the ends do not justify the means. I mesan hekk that is why we are there. the only differnce in west and saddam is the uniform. terror is terror. the geneva codes prohibit torture and pshc terror. i giuess saddamy would have gone ahead and shot him but west is now on saddamies level and its time for him to leave the military.it is sad to see such an officer do something so incredibly stupid but it does happen. that is why the terrorist have an advantage is because they have no rules of engagement and we do. if we did not we would have the largest terror organization in the world. west was fully aware of all the rules he broke while braeking them. if he is lucky maybe Jonny Cochrane will represent him. my self I dont want any thugs,terrorists or unstable personnel leading me, being in my military or representing it. it is so sad but he must go.just an opinion but like many others I earned the right to have it :) good luck and keep posting<br />and remember history is always written by the winner and the winners never stand trail for war crimes
 

Elmer Fudge

Lieutenant Commander
Joined
Aug 25, 2003
Messages
1,881
Re: I SEE why our guys are getting killed now

It's like getting in the ring with your hands tied behind your back and the opponents are free to attack by every dirty rotten means at they're disposal.These so called self imposed rules are detremental to our brave soldiers well bieng. :mad: :mad: :mad: ..
 

Skinnywater

Commander
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Mar 7, 2002
Messages
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Re: I SEE why our guys are getting killed now

Firing two rounds away from the enemy. That resulted in information that foiled an attack that surely saved American lives, was unfair and cruel........... NOT!!! <br /><br />Hmmm, rodbolt, maybe we should sue the familys of the passengers that foiled the hijacking of the plane that went down in Pennsylvania. I mean after all, stopping those poor hijackers from accomplishing thier mission just had to be terrible blow to thier confidence.<br /><br />Not to worry JB, this one could send me over the top.... :mad: :mad: ....whew, that was close.
 

rodbolt

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Sep 1, 2003
Messages
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Re: I SEE why our guys are getting killed now

hello<br /> big difference between stopping an active act of hijacking and terrorizing a captive prisoner of war.big big big. the officer knwew he blew it. if he cannot play by the rules he and saddam are equal. had saddam or osama done that to an american we would shreick,wail and stomp our feet. why is an Iraqy POW any less of a POW covered by the rules of the Geneva convention? once captured there are specific guidelines and threatening a captive with a pistol is not among them. I hate to see it but it is what seperates our military from theirs. a POW is a POW I dont care if its saudi,Iraqi,french german American or veitnamese. all are covered by the redcross (an INTERNATIONAL entity) all are covered by the geneva conventions and that officer was fully aware his actiions while trying to save a life were still illegal. I cant now but I used to be able to quote the I am an american fighting man by memory. I also was trained in what I could and could not do if caputering or being captured. just because they do it doesnt mean we should. I can understand it is easy to be caught up in the heat of battle but if we allow the rules to be flagrantly violated at will we become the barbarians and terrorists<br /> Good luck and keep posting
 

JB

Honorary Moderator Emeritus
Joined
Mar 25, 2001
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Re: I SEE why our guys are getting killed now

If we lower ourselves to the inhumane and vicious terror methods of our enemies what are we saying about America?<br /><br />We must adhere to our values, whatever the price, or we are no better than they. I do not believe that there is any such thing as justified evil in the cause of freedom.
 

ebbtide176

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Jan 22, 2002
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Re: I SEE why our guys are getting killed now

i think the geneva convention is a great agreement. it is necessary, and should be upheld to the strictist means.<br /><br />but i think we all would use whatever means possible, and accepted, to do everything to a prisoner to get info. i think that's a part of war. anything other than death & permanent mutilation seems understandable when saving your fellow soldiers' lives. included would be any available emotional & psychiatric means. only drug induced trauma would be also outlawed by me. but i'm not a person to make the rules, its just my thoughts...
 

Skinnywater

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Mar 7, 2002
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Re: I SEE why our guys are getting killed now

Since he was paid and employed by the occupying forces, he should have been shot as a spy. <br /><br />As per the Geneva Conventions:<br />Exceptions to status,<br />To benefit from POW status, combatants must clearly distinguish themselves from <br />civilians or members of the enemy armed forces, by wearing a distinctive uniform <br />or sign and carrying their weapons openly. Those who fail to fulfill these obligations <br />at the time of their capture cannot benefit from POW status. Spies and "saboteurs" <br />by concealing their combatant status, are not entitled to the status of prisoner of war. <br />(See Article 46 of Additional Protocol I.)
 

FLATHEAD

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Dec 29, 2002
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Re: I SEE why our guys are getting killed now

I have no problem with whipping the living tar out of a prisoner, especially if he is a high ranking one known to have info that will help our efforts to squash the enemy and save lives. If he wont talk, make em talk!!<br /><br />They also could drug them and get them to talk, no problems with that either. They do these things to our men, I say fight fire with fire.<br /><br />What good are rules if only one country abides by them? <br /><br />If the prisoner would have started to run and been shot and KILLED instead of captured that would be OK? But scaring the living hell out of him is wrong??<br /><br />Rodbolt said "that is why the terrorist have an advantage is because they have no rules of engagement and we do" nuff said.<br /><br />You cant fight a politically correct war and expect to win.<br /><br />Maybe we should just line the solders up in a straight line out in the open and march right into the teeth of the enemy, after all at one time this was the correct way to fight a war, hiding behind trees and rocks was not playing by the "rules"
 

kclark1963

Seaman Apprentice
Joined
Sep 20, 2003
Messages
47
Re: I SEE why our guys are getting killed now

Being prior service USMC I'm reading these posts and can see both sides, especially on the last few. Now I ask myself, if the plot was not believed by the LtCol to be directed specifically at him would he have done the same thing? Not being privy to some information i find it hard to believe this is the first captured thug that he has come in contact with. Just something to think about.......<br /><br />Semper Fi<br /><br />Kevin
 

gonfishn

Commander
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May 16, 2002
Messages
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Re: I SEE why our guys are getting killed now

Does anyone remember the Geneva Convention card they use to have us carry. Major problem with that was finding someone who could read English and the other was finding one who upheld that sacred code. Sounds good on paper but in reality it is a joke..
 

KennyKenCan

Commander
Joined
Aug 26, 2002
Messages
2,501
Re: I SEE why our guys are getting killed now

If these were the rules of war during WWII, we would all be speaking German now!<br /><br />What a disgrace!!<br /><br />Protecting the lives of the enemy is more important than the lives of our American Soldiers?<br /><br />NOT!!
 

wvit100

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May 6, 2002
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Re: I SEE why our guys are getting killed now

Article 128 of the Uniform Code of Military Justice describes assault in these terms: "Any person subject to this chapter who attempts or offers with unlawful force or violence to do bodily harm to another person, whether or not the attempt or offer is consummated, is guilty of assault and shall be punished as a court-martial may direct."<br /><br />Since West was in charge then I think the military has to take some action. If the officer's are allowed to do what they please then how can they be expected to keep any discipline with their men.
 

Carphunter

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Aug 11, 2002
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Re: I SEE why our guys are getting killed now

JB, I have to respectfully disagree. These Iraqi people have no respect for human life whatsoever. They do not think like we do at all. They want to die for allah, they feel it is an honor. Many of them are like animals. They want to see us all dead. If a few warning shots fired at an Iraqi POW saved one American life, then surely it was worth it.<br /><br />We can't put the lives of our enemy above the lives of our own troops. This is war. This war on terror needs to be won by any means possible.......PERIOD.<br /><br />And I also disagree with your statement:
I do not believe that there is any such thing as justified evil in the cause of freedom
In the cause of freedom, and to protect our own troops, we had to drop two serious bombs on our enemy during WWII. Many innocent people were killed during these two explosions. Is it evil to kill innocent people, I think so. Was it necessary? You better believe it was necessary!!!
 

samagee

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Aug 7, 2003
Messages
644
Re: I SEE why our guys are getting killed now

Skinnywater, good point. Perhaps his lawyer will get him out with that loop hole. The Iraqi police officer is screwed. I think this says something about the whole situation. The irqis are taking advantage of some very gulible Americans.<br /><br />I guess this means we have to tell our people over there, DO NOT TAKE PRISONERS. I find it hard to believe they can't just put on paper that the attempt to capture was a failure, because the iraqi keep fighting. So they had to shot them.
 

gaugeguy

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Jun 4, 2003
Messages
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Re: I SEE why our guys are getting killed now

I have to agree with gonfishn, what good is the Geneva Convention if only one side abides by it? Name one conflict that we have been in that our prisoners weren't abused since the adoption of the Accords? Not one. <br /><br />I fought in Gulf War I, I had a Iraqi prisoner spit in my face and I dropped him like a bad habit. His nose exploded under the weight of my fist. My platoon commander told me that I could have been brought up on war criminal charges. Luckily it didn't happen. <br /><br />As far as I am concerned, those people are sub-human. If roughing up a few of them, or mentally tormenting them to get information that will save one american life, I am all for it. They wouldn't think twice about doing it to us or even worse, executing our boys. War is hell, who cares if we stoop to their level? You can't be bringing a knife to a gunfight. We dropped the a-bomb on Japan to save american lives, shooting your weapon to scare a prisoner into talking doesn't even compare.
 

LadyFish

Admiral
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Mar 18, 2003
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Re: I SEE why our guys are getting killed now

I agree, the problem is simple, we are the only country that still follows the guidelines of the Geneva Convention. The U.S.ensures medical, dental, clean clothes, food, water and a comfortable place to lay. American POW's are beaten, tortured and forced to say things under duress. <br /><br />Like the UN, the Geneva Convention is obsolete. :rolleyes:
 

SoulWinner

Commander
Joined
Apr 16, 2002
Messages
2,423
Re: I SEE why our guys are getting killed now

Look, if you get into a fight, and fight a fair clean fight and the other guy fights dirty, guess who's gonna win? Like in a boxing ring, the ref keeps it clean, but there is no ref in Iraq making the Iraqi terrorists play by the rules. It may be "distasteful" to have to fight dirty to win, but this is a freaking war, not a tea party.
 
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