Just went Synthetic

[MajBach]

Re: Just went Synthetic

Lube:<br />In your example, the frequency of oil changes between the two types is 2 1/2 to 1. Is that realistic? I mean, maybe the oil breakdown ratio between the two is ok but what about the idea of the oil keeping the engine clean by absorbing deposits etc. I'm asking - really, I don't know.<br />I just don't think I could sleep at night going from changing my oil every 3000 miles (even though the mfg recommends 5000-7000 miles, depending on conditions) to 7500 miles. I wouldn't sleep imagining how dirty the oil is. Like going a week without a shower. Enlighten me, please.<br />AS far as the outboard is concerned, I could car less the cost. I change it twice a season regardless of hours. I may consider only once with synthetic.

 

[LubeDude]

Re: Just went Synthetic

I feel your pain about the dirt thing, but figure this. Honestly the reason your oil turns dark, is NOT dirt,its not even carbon. You can prove this to yourself by heating some regular oil in a spoon over a candle for awhile, It will turn dark rather quickly, I know, Its hard to see dark colored oil on the dipstick, but color is the worst way to tell if you need an oil change. Oil analisis is the only way and they are too expensive to do everytime so we just change it at a reasonable interval. The reason you need to change your oil at say 3,500 miles is because the additives are being depleted. Synthetics last longer in this respect. and do not turn dark as fast. Obviously if you have a problem with your induction system (running too rich ) or your air filter isnt doing its job then you have other concerns.

 

[Forktail]

Re: Just went Synthetic

I also find a problem with your comparison LubeDude.<br /><br />Somehow you've extended the life of your filter with the synthetics. You're changing the filter every 3000 miles with conventional oil, yet every 7500 miles with the synthetic. <br /><br />Is there a reason the filter can't go 7500 miles with the conventional as well, or why the filter should not be changed every 3000 miles with the synthetic? <br /><br />Usually for extended drain intervals people use bypass (extra) filtration. An added expense.<br /><br />If you consider changing the filter every 3000 with conventional oil, you must also consider it for the synthetic. Apples to apples. Oh, and don't forget you'll be adding extra synthetic when you make that filter change.<br /><br />And somehow you've compared the price of synthetic oil that is "on sale" to the price of conventional oil which is not on sale. <br /><br />I can find API conventional oil for $0.99/quart, and that's the regular price, not on sale. Synthetic motor oils are usually $4.50 to $5.00+/quart. I don't think I've ever seen $4.00/quart synthetic (except mail order which would need freight charges added).<br /><br />I'd also like to point out that longer change intervals mean more contaminate accumulation. So although you may believe the synthetic is "giving better wear and economy" you are running that oil at higher contaminate level.<br /><br />It is obvious that an oil changed every 2 1/2 times to another, will almost always be cleaner. Clean oil means less wear. Send in an oil sample for the synthetic at 6000 miles, and send one in for the conventional oil at 6000 miles (it should be fresh because you just changed it). Which one do you think will have less contaminates?<br /><br />

You can prove this to yourself by heating some regular oil in a spoon over a candle for awhile, It will turn dark rather quickly, I know, Its hard to see dark colored oil on the dipstick, but color is the worst way to tell if you need an oil change.

Not a good analogy. The oil in your engine runs at about 180 degrees. Oil in a spoon over a candle would get much, much hotter than that.<br /><br />I have some engines that keep the oil looking virtually new for many miles. These engines have excellent filtration systems. <br /><br />Dirty oil is a sign of dirty oil. The contamination comes from fuel, air, wear, and combustion. If your oil is turning color because of heat, you have a serious engine problem.<br /><br />BTW, most conventional oils have adequate additives and properties to easily go 7500 miles. My new truck suggests 5000 mile changes.<br /><br />Any way I add it up, an oil change costs me over 3 times more with synthetics. Are the benefits 3 times better? Nah.

 

[LubeDude]

Re: Just went Synthetic

Forktail, you just like to nitpick! It wouldnt matter what we were discussing you would pick it apart. I beleive its a personal thing with me. You always seem to attack me thinking somehow Im trying to force people to do something they do not want to do.<br /><br />maybe I will have to stop explaining things in general terms and cut to the nats A*s on everything. Even with the analogy I made, I wasnt trying to convince anyone to do what I was saying, I even said at the end that the choice was yours. I never said that if you dont do it that way you must be an idiot. It was just an analogy and not ment to be to the penny. $1.29 a quart anymore is on sale. sure the oil would get hotter with the candle, but the oil gets hotter in your engine too and then goes to the sump where it cools with the other oil. Sure, I suppose the oil filter would go another 3,000 miles, but who wants to put new oil in an old filter with anywhere from 1/2 to 1 quart of aditive depleted oil.<br /><br />"Dirty oil is a sign of dirty oil. The contamination comes from fuel, air, wear, and combustion. If your oil is turning color because of heat, you have a serious engine problem."<br /><br />If you beleive that as gospel, then you really do not know as much as I thought you did. When you see an oil analysis you dont really see much in the way of dirt. Or shouldnt anyway. Why would wear show as discoloration? Metal wear is shinny and you better not see any of that. Its too microscopic to see anyway.<br /><br />Lighten up a little.<br /><br />Does anyone else here think this is personal??? I sure do, and untill I figure this out I will not answer Forktails replies! I feel he is just a trouble maker, and thinks he has something to prove!

 

[KCLOST]

Re: Just went Synthetic

A little...

 

[rickdb1boat]

Re: Just went Synthetic

Hi Lube<br /><br />I think if you go back and read some of forktails posts, you will see it's not a personal thing. He loves to debate and you are certainly not the only one that this has happend to. It may appear that he is singling you out, but this happens often with other members, too. So don't feel alone and don't think you will win this one. It will never stop...

 

[MajBach]

Re: Just went Synthetic

LubeDude: Thanks for the info. About the personal issue? I think he would say the same thing to his mother. So no, I don't think it's personal - Forktail does a good job of sticking to the facts presented and not using sarcasm. His feelings don't get hurt if you disagree with him and I respect that tpye of confidence.<br />I invite this type of back and forth for as long as it remains focused on the facts, it reamins a debate, not an arguement or a war. There are no losers in a debate, just better informed participants and spectators.<br />Thanks for the info from you both. Now answer my question about the outboard -lol!

 

[james082273]

Re: Just went Synthetic

A couple ????<br /><br />This isn't really my point but I thought I would add it anyway . How can the oil temp be only 180 degrees when 99% of cars on the road now days have a 195 - 200 degree thermostats? The oil that has no cooling mechanism (at least probably doesn’t) other than wind blowing on the oil pan is actually cooler than the rest of the engine?<br /><br />Even if the oil is much cooler sitting in the pan at some time in the oils life it will come in contact with the compression rings and then fall back in to the pan. There is no way that oil has never been heated past 180 degrees. I'm sure the oil that comes in contact with the exhaust valve stems gets well over 180 degrees also. Granted it is not all the oil in the pan heated to 500 degrees at once. But over time all the oil will get super heated.<br /><br />So in my opinion the high heat characteristics of synthetic oils could keep them from turning dark a little bit longer.<br /><br />My .02....

 

[butlp]

Re: Just went Synthetic

IMO Forktail does a great job of exposing board members who are trying to promote products that they have a commercial interest in.<br /><br />Lubedude you are no different than the two Evinrude/Johnson dealer members who constantly sing the praise of the E-Tec propaganda. Like them you promote your product but don't like to be challenged. You then throw your hands up, refusing to continue debating, rather than admit that Forktail may have a good point.<br /><br />I have never seen a post from Forktail where he made a personal attack on another member even after some serious insults were thrown his way. For that he has my respect!

 

[quantumleap]

Re: Just went Synthetic

LubeDude, I disaggree with your theory on older seals and synthetics. Ironically, as an example, my uncle, who is a matainence engineer and a P-matainence freak, had a 1989 Ford Ranger with a v-6, which he canged the oil on religiously. At about 105K miles, he switched to a full synthetic and 2 days later he had oil spots all over his driveway from a vehicle that had never leaked a drop of oil or any other fluid before. Under the hood looked as clean as the day he bought it. He switched back to petro-oil and the leak subsided by the end of the next week. It is no secret that synthetics posess better lubricating qualities and are able to get past older seals at low start-up temps where petro-based oils are a little thicker at colder temps. Once the seals warm and expand a little,it isn't much of a problem. I am not opposed to synthetics at all. As a matter of fact, I used a synthetic blend oil and tranny fluid in my truck and full synthetic in the lower unit of my outboard. I just started using the pennzoil blend as well. <br /> You have quite a bit of useful knowledge on this forum and make some very good points, however, your posts sometimes come across a little matter of fact, when in fact they simply are usually just your own personal opinion, and not based on any justified truth. (like the ranger truck for example, just because you changed over and had no problem, then in your mind, no one should have a problem, but I just showed you an very similar example in which it was a problem) No hard feeling I hope as I do enjoy your contributions to this forums. Just try to be a little more open minded that things might not always be exactly as you perceive them. I learn something new here every time I log on.

 

[jimchere]

Re: Just went Synthetic

Fuel to the fire:\<br />'74 Air Cooled VW, put in pure synthetic (QS 5w-50) two days ago and ran it for 120+ miles.<br />Started in the morning with temp of about 25 degF and ran during the day with temp of about 55 degF.<br />So far, the little flat-4 loves it, and has about 115k miles since last rebuild.<br />I'll monitor and post how it goes into the future. So far, no leaks, no burning, and it "seems" or "sounds" (could be my ears)just a bit quiter/smoother at higher revs.

 

[LubeDude]

Re: Just went Synthetic

OK, with all this said, I guess I have to let things roll off my back a little easier, seeing how Forktail likes to debate (Duh), And is so good at it. One thing about the internet and forums, you cant see the persons face and body language and its hard to tell where someones coming from, me or Forktail. I think what puts me at odds and frustrates me so much is that some look at me as a salesman pushing a product, I honestly try not to do that, but I guess when your loyalty to a product is so great in comes out looking like you are. In the last few posts I havnt even mentioned the A word at all. Ill keep on Keeping on. .<br /><br />I try not to use just my personal feelings or opinions interfere when posting, I can usually back up what I have to say somewhere, I just try and not be too technical on my posts, I think it would get old wading through it all most of the time, But then when I dont Someone always sems to want to see the facts, and then when I try to post them it seems that some call the place where I got the information Bias, so its frustrating as I seemed Damn*ed if I do and damn*d if I dont.<br /><br />Ok, Ill try and Melloww out. HUMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM<br /><br />As to the color of dirty engine oil, I may have been a little over zellous on that one, Im not silly enough to mean that there isnt some contamination from the air, combustion by products and such, its a fact of the internal combustion engine, but if you run a conventional engine oil you will notice that your oil will start to discolor after about 500-1000 miles and become almost black at 3000, With a synthetic, I have 5000 miles on my oil in my pick-up now, (Mobil1 10W-30) and it is just a nice amber color, when it used to be black with a conventional oil. I know its doing its job, so where is all the dirt, carbon and such that caused the old oil to turn black???

 

[quantumleap]

Re: Just went Synthetic

I think the important thing for EVERYONE to keep in mind is that most people, myself included, are on this site looking for specific information or looking to expand their general knowledge of boating. In that case any information is better than none at all, and that there is something to be learned from everyone's input. Everyone keep postin' cause I'm still learning!! Thanks to all.

 

[Forktail]

Re: Just went Synthetic

Post deleted....and ammo removed from both barrels.

 

[BillP]

Re: Just went Synthetic

Lubedude, <br />It isn't personal but as already stated...You post opinion as hard core fact...folks like me want a more scientific answer to questions.<br /><br />About the cost analysis...I'm talking about how much engine wear synthetics prevent to save repair cost. Oil analysis is fine and dandy but you still need to know how those counts relate for wear in miles or engine hours. Even "very high" counts can mean very long engine life. How much longer will the avg engine last on synthetic? Like Forktail said, modern pet oils do a darn good job and have years of proving it. <br /><br />I recently purchased a Cat 3126B (300hp turbo)with 600 hrs and asked (yesterday)the local Cat warranty shop owner his opinion about changing to synthetics. It isn't recommended or necessary. He said NOT to extend the oil change hours if going to synthetics. Airborne contamination of the oil is the reason. This is exactly opposite to the norm on synthetics. In my mind a cat warranty center (in business since 1971 and same owner)has major experience and credibility. If synthetics are SO superior and cost effective why are 99% of the major trucking companies using pet oil? It's the real world vs the advertising hype world.<br /><br />On aircooled engines I can definitey see the advantage to lower temps from synthetic. However, a water cooled engine is supposed to run at certain temps. Colder temps make the computer change mixtures trying to make up for the cold. On non computer engines just change the tstat to make the motor run cooler. If your motor is running hotter with petrolem oil the cooling system is bad, overloaded or over heating from massive wear. That means to me that a marginal heating problem may be cured by changing to synthetics to keep the motor at normal temps.<br /><br />Anyway, I only run synthetics in my 2 stroke lawn gear. My 2 stroke outboards get name brand TCW-III and my Mariner 4 stroke gets Merc 4 stroke pet oil. My Cat and and autos get pet oil.

 

[LubeDude]

Re: Just went Synthetic

Different strokes for different folks!<br /><br />I use and reccomend the synthetic 2 cycle oil for outboards for the cleanliness aspect and the less smoking mostly. No decarbing and spark plugs last longer. Using it in you cars and other equipment, is entirely up to the idividual, granted the regular oil is going to do well for the average individual. Now, dont get upset because I called you average!

 

[nightstalker]

Re: Just went Synthetic

The discussion is mostly concerned with 4 stroke engines. What about the switch over on a 2 stroke outboard that's 10 years old? Would using a blend help?<br />Stalker

 

[montanaman]

Re: Just went Synthetic

BillP, you are exactly right it is the real world vs. the advertising hype world. We have been trained to beleive that normal Petro. oil will only last 2 or 3 thousand miles(I'm included in this group). Most of the major trucking companies have went to oil analysis for determining when to change oil and filters and to let them know the condition of their engines. I have personally seen an oil analysis sheet on a M35 2 1/2 ton truck with 10,000 miles on 15 year old oil and it said to change filters and keep on trucking. This stuff looked like straight crude oil, would I recommend this for any of our vehicles, never! The point is the weak link in the lubrication system is not the oil, it's the filter. <br />If you are going 7,500 miles between oil changes then I would go with synthetic. If you go 3,000 miles I would stick with Petro. bases oils. <br /><br />As far as longevity of your engine whether or not you use petro. or synthetic makes very little difference. There are too many variables involved ie. cooling system, driving habits , climate etc. I think it would be very hard to prove that engines run with synthetic oil outlast engines run with petro. based oil. <br /><br />It all boils down to personnel preference. If you want to use synthetics, then do so , if you don't , then don't. In the end it is your money spent whether it's on oil or an engine and we should not criticize another for the choices they make or the experiences that they offer.<br /><br />I have learned alot since joining this forum. I would like to see a continued exchange of ideas on this subject. I want to hear of personnel experiences and trials. If I wanted to see stats and numbers I would go to the manufacturers websites. <br />I hope you all great boating adventures. <br /><br />Say a prayer for our soldiers.<br /><br />MONTANAMAN

 

[Forktail]

Re: Just went Synthetic

I'd like to address a question I just saw back a ways...<br /><br />

How can the oil temp be only 180 degrees when 99% of cars on the road now days have a 195 - 200 degree thermostats?

Apples and oranges. The coolant temperature doesn't necessarily dictate what the oil temperature is, and vise-versa. <br /><br />Thermostats restrict the coolant from circulating. And that coolant is located directly adjacent to the combustion chambers where cylinder exhaust temperatures can exceed 1000 degrees. It is basically held to the heat. <br /><br />A 150 degree thermostat would allow the coolant to begin circulating colder coolant from the reservior at 150 degrees. A 300 degree thermostat would allow the coolant to begin circulating colder coolant at 300 degrees. If you removed the thermostat completely and had an enormous reservoir, the engine coolant would never warm up. 195-200 degree thermostats simply allow the engine to operate at it's most efficient operating temperature, and in relation to the design of the engine's metal alloys.<br /><br />Oil on the other hand is allowed to circulate through the engine, never staying in one spot. The oil sump also acts as a cooler, allowing the oil to cool. Some engines even have additional engine oil coolers. Although the oil is on the underside of the piston and on the lower oil ring, it does not see combustion temperatures, nor cool the combustion walls. What little oil is exposed to combustion temperature is burned.<br /><br />I have both oil and coolant temperature gauges on some of my vehicles, gasoline and diesel. The coolant temperature always reaches operating temperature before the oil temperature, and it always remains at a higher temperature than the oil. This is in part due to what I mentioned above, but also due to the fact that the oil and coolant have different heat transfer coefficients, thermal conductivity, etc.<br /><br />I stand by my statement that the oil in your engine runs at about 180 degrees (give or take at little). Yes, it may see higher temperatures, but rest assured that conventional motor oils have what it takes to operate at those temperatures...and then some. They do it every day. And oil will maintain its stability well after the coolant.<br /><br />If you want to know what the temperature of your oil is, you need an oil temperature gauge. You can't go by the thermostat. <br /><br />BTW, my latest truck recommends 5000 mile oil changes on conventional oil. And if you're going to extend your change interval, you need to also extend your filtration capacity with a bypass system.

 

[LubeDude]

Re: Just went Synthetic

BillP: Forktail: Well said, Only a couple comments.<br /><br />Every test on wear #s Ive ever seen the wear is less with synthetics in most instances.<br /><br />And the most sludge that you will find in an engine (unusual in todays cars) is always around the valve springs and intake valley where the tempuratures are the higest, How can we know what the oil temp is in these areas while an engine is running? Depending on design it can stay up there longer in some engines as they dont have very good oil drain holes, I say it is hotter than we know. Also when the crank throws oil up into the inside of the cylider and then is pushed back into the pan when the piston comes down, it has to be pretty hot also. This is only an asumption as there really isnt any way to really know.<br /><br />Toyota had some real problems with some of there engines a few years back with sludging problems, even with people that were changing regular oil at 3,500 mi. The ones that were using a synthetic didnt have the problem.