Metal plate instead of plywood core for transom? Not the bandaid thing..

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ondarvr

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Re: Metal plate instead of plywood core for transom? Not the bandaid thing..

Please let me know what area you would suggest. I do need to work out my numbers, but the science is rather simple. The actual application will be the tougher part.

Though you might consider it rambling, I'm very specific in what I'm talking about.

The mistake is in thinking that by combining all three fibers in the same laminate you automatically make it better. It doesn't work that way.
In the two weeks you've been googling you haven't miraculously out smarted every boat builder and engineer in the world with this revelation about high end fibers.

These fibers have been around for a very Long time, they are well understood, and you're just finding out about them so it seems very clear to you that they should be used everywhere.
 
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GaJeff

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Re: Metal plate instead of plywood core for transom? Not the bandaid thing..

For some reason I subscribed to this.... Not sure but it's getting old. I thought I was going to find some useful info in this discussion but its turned to rambling ones views. Whatever your going to to just do it already and post some pics so we can see.

Unsubscribed
 

chconger

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Re: Metal plate instead of plywood core for transom? Not the bandaid thing..

jb, I do plan on the 1198 and most likely the 101# terrova/ilink.. that's been in the pipe for a couple months glenn, ya, if the design you're describing is there (I think it might be, but it seems like there is a section across the entire back I'm tempted to say, won't know for sure til cap is off) it does change the design for reinforcement, but ultimately there's a limited number of directions and pressure to each that will be had, what I mean to say is the possibilities are few for the interaction of the stress points and their various parameters.. Thanks for the heads up though, now I've got 2 different plans in progress jumbling around for ideas ondarvr, honestly, I don't doubt an all glass situation would do the job AND do it WELL. I have no doubt that a plywood core even, would do the job just fine. The key in this case though is care after implementation. As wood rots, by putting wood in, you've already started a "clock" so to speak, and you've engaged in that care to prevent things from happening. But of course, as everything in life always goes the way we want it to, I'm not sure why I'm even doubting the age old practiceOne question I would have for you, perhaps others might chime in If we break down the fibers, all 3, into generalized anonymous categories of use(for ease of hypotheticals), I might tend to say that aramid is on top, glass in the center, and then carbon fiber below. Now given that each of the outside materials (cf/a) preform to unique strengths, and unique weaknesses, and glass itself has AVERAGE strengths of the other 2, but a serious weakness in the case of a couple weaknesses, we're basically looking at the 3 materials as good for separate purposes IF they are used ALONE and by themselves. Glass would win in more tests.But now the question remains, when COMBINING the 3, or even 2 (G+CF or G+A), which numbers would come out on top for generalized use in multiple tests. You could say it's the average of the 3 plus bringing up the low numbers(weaknesses) in the direction and specialization of the composite being added to the glass. Basically each material compliments each other. I think we can all agree on that fairly easilyThe question remains, not what happens to the strengths, but what happens to the WEAKNESSES?So you have to realize, that though each material has it's negatives, when you bring these 3 together, it raises the average minimum.So in turn, if using a combination of the 3 fibers, and building a ratio of the inclusion of the 3 fibers(I'm sure it would depend more upon fiber orientation than ratios), to come to the same weight as a similar part is ALL glass, the hybrid would win every time. The range of variables is smaller with the hybrid material because you have "brought up" the average minimum and average maximum because of the base material being glass, and then ADDING in reinforcement in the form of "specialized" fibers.You can see these characteristics in other products where a company has a base product, develops something better, but not quite as 'uniform' in tests across the board, as the original design.(this is in reply ondarvr to your touching on, 'just because you use the materials, doesn't make it last longer')Because if you're looking at a board of statistics of tests, in the center you'll have your glass as the median for 90% of the tests as it's characteristics represent that, and it usually sits in the middle of the other 2 fibers. Thus longevity and resistance to fatigue, would be a smaller margin of error and smaller margin of premature failure as when compared plainly to glass, or either of the 2 specialized fibers when used plainly by themselves.One might say, when speaking on properties of materials and 'years old best practices', if I'm looking to maximize integrity across the board, and there's of course never any shortcoming when talking about taking care of an object over a 40 year period as long as you 'keep it well maintained', the course of action I'm looking into is completely wrong. I should be looking to copy the design of the boat, and do what a real boat designer or any good engineer would do, and build the transom wholly out of wood, and then instead of fiberglass, build the hull and internal structures out of solid wood too . :)







I think I can sum up my thoughts on this in one simple graph;




findx_zpsc98da73f.png



Chris
 

Woodonglass

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Re: Metal plate instead of plywood core for transom? Not the bandaid thing..

I'm not looking for "X"...I'm looking for a Transom!!!! Or maybe even a boat! Or a trailer or... Heck a picture of sumthin!!!! We LOVE pics on the forum and I haven't seen anything yet!!!! Being a Dumb Okie, with out Pichers to look at, I get kinda lost!!!!!:sleeping:
 

kungpaoshizi

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Re: Metal plate instead of plywood core for transom? Not the bandaid thing..

Lol, first of all, if anyone here is going to join in this conversation and want me to take them seriously, learn proper grammar.
Also, another person is confused to what's going on. I never said 'carbon fiber alone'. I'm talking the use of the 3 together.

Gajeff, I've already lost your argument, if indeed the boat is chop sprayed, then it's quite different. I think this would be true for A LOT of people who do diy transom replacements. Also, who said I've never worked with fiberglass? (btw, unsubscribed? ok, thanks for sharing what you have)

pyrotek, I do plan on using epoxy vs the others. I've seen a lot of impressive numbers but ultimately epoxy will yield the best bond to the non-glass material.

Woodonglass, please do share any info you have on these negative experiences. That's what I'm looking for but nobody seems to have any links or stories, heck, I'll even take mathematical data. The other guy mentioned something about reams of data, so if it's out there, it must be a mystery to everyone otherwise they might share it. And you said POD?
Btw, I would much rather spend a good deal of time on "speculation" than hindsight.

Ondarvr, I'm not sure what your beef is, but back off. Go somewhere or show some data. Put up or shut up.
I've not once stated anything about "figuring anything out boat makers etc etc." I'm merely trying to have an intellectual conversation. Obviously you don't follow, so that's ok, but don't treat me like an ignorant fool. I've seen more scientific data on facebook than what you've put forth. If I were you, and I truly gave a crap about what it is you're saying, I would relate my experience through example. You might do laminate scheduling for a company, but if you are your company, you probably have issues in customer retention. Just a guess.

chconger, nice to see you found it :)


Lol and woodonglass, yes, I'll get pics taken. Sorry I guess I can't reply to remarks... :)
(I always thought responding to others words was a courtesy)

I was interested in sharing my thoughts about it and seeing if anyone here has any constructive input. I thank the few who have shared, but the other ones who are skeptical, it's a free country. But if you don't like it, don't fill the thread with trash. Boat companies use this stuff ALL THE TIME. And your personal opinion does not change that. What you think about it? I would love to hear, but not repeating posts of the same garbage that does not contain any science or anything other than 'gut feelings' because you've never worked with it.

I'm all for hearing peoples input, but not baseless negativity.
I would have thought higher of the iboat community.
 
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Woodonglass

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Re: Metal plate instead of plywood core for transom? Not the bandaid thing..

The Good about Outboard Brackets and possibly some help in understanding why you want to build an "incredible Hulk" Transom!Outboard Brackets - Pros and Cons? - The Hull Truth - Boating and Fishing Forum

Cons:
Changes C.O.G. More weight needed In Bow.
Swamping over the stern can occur on quick stops. this would be especially bad on a Bass Boat that is already built low to the water.
Porpoising has been reported to become more prevalent on some hulls. this appears mainly to occur from overpowering the boat however.

All of this was obtained by simply Googling Pro's and Con's of OutBoard Brackets.
 

kungpaoshizi

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Re: Metal plate instead of plywood core for transom? Not the bandaid thing..

The Good about Outboard Brackets and possibly some help in understanding why you want to build an "incredible Hulk" Transom!Outboard Brackets - Pros and Cons? - The Hull Truth - Boating and Fishing Forum

Cons:
Changes C.O.G. More weight needed In Bow.
Swamping over the stern can occur on quick stops. this would be especially bad on a Bass Boat that is already built low to the water.
Porpoising has been reported to become more prevalent on some hulls. this appears mainly to occur from overpowering the boat however.

All of this was obtained by simply Googling Pro's and Con's of OutBoard Brackets.

Ahh yes, I'm familiar with these points. Though your link was a good read, they're talking about a 30"(maybe avg?) extension off the transom.. The physics are still present, but I'm thinking of probably no more than a 10"(probably 6") jack plate bracket + whatever the manual plate will be for tilt.
10" setback on a ~300lb motor would be right around 530 lbs? The boat itself is 750. This could very well enter territory I don't want to touch, but if I was worried about it I could sit down and hash out the resulting numbers.
I will very likely have to change weight ratios inside the boat. The 15g tank and 2-60lb marine batteries are in the back along with my tool bucket and tackle box. I already experience swamping if I stop VERY abruptly from from WOT, but again, see weight ratios..(it's also a side, mostly stern console)

That's another reason I'm at this stage with it, it's already got max hp setup for the motor and most of the comforts for fishing. The one issue I do have with the setup is the PTT and knowing my angles for movement are "off"... I definitely nit-pick on my numbers and materials though. So perhaps the old timers here are correct, but I am not one who accepts things based PURELY from opinion. I guess I'll find out from my testing or stumble on some hard data I can't ignore that would be a genuine safety concern.

Also again, I know some consider what I said rambling, but if you really look at what I said, that is how statistics/probability works when carrying out tests with known individual attributes. By NO means does it give you a complete view, but it gives a good brief look into expected behavior and the approachable variances. That's just how physics works, unless we're talking about current viewpoints on the Boson particulates and the like... :)
 

ondarvr

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Re: Metal plate instead of plywood core for transom? Not the bandaid thing..

Please let me know what area you would suggest. I do need to work out my numbers, but the science is rather simple. The actual application will be the tougher part.

Though you might consider it rambling, I'm very specific in what I'm talking about.

Lol,

I'm all for hearing peoples input, but not baseless negativity.
I would have thought higher of the iboat community.



I haven't seen much baseless negativity. You came to a site that deals with what you plan to do every day of the week, and has guided hundreds through the process successfully. You asked how certain materials will work for "your" specific application. What you were told was the cores you suggested weren't suitable and the fibers you wanted to use were costly and overkill, plus can be harder to use and engineer with little benefit for "your" application.

You have told everyone here that you are far smarter and know much more because you googled it and watched some videos online.

Now you say the motor doesn't have PTT, just having that will do more for you than everything else you are dreaming about. So I wasn't wrong when I said save your money and buy a different motor.
 
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Re: Metal plate instead of plywood core for transom? Not the bandaid thing..

no ptt? wow that's like running a 3 legged donkey in a horse race. get Ptt before anything else as it makes a world of difference on a bass boat. As for swamping the rear just come off plane then wait for the wave and punch it forwards so the boat rides the wake. Transom, stringers, deck are boring so just replace the rot and use the laws of physics to work out where to cut flutes into the bottom of the hull to introduce air between the hull and water reducing friction and you be looked up to. (screw up the physics and the boat will be unstable and you will crash at high speed but the data will be there for the rest of us)

p.s at some point they changed from head horse power to prop horse power if the 77 is rated at the head then changing the motor gains you more hp for the same rating
 
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jbcurt00

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Re: Metal plate instead of plywood core for transom? Not the bandaid thing..

These are the in-depth kind of examples I was hoping for..
Scale models - Boat Design Forums
That ^^^ seems to proof the suggestion that what you're planning to attempt at home as a backyard boat builder, will be a difficult, time consuming, and expensive:

daiquiri: I agree with Ilan Voyager's words. This issue of professional boat design vs. homemade design has already been a subject of many posts in the forum. I personally was the one who wrote about the necessity for a designer to both study the theory and do a lots of practical sailing. And was labeled as "too negative" by some.
rolleyes.gif


Don't expect to make a good hull form without studying and understanding the theoretical aspects of boat design. It could have been done back in 1700's and 1800's, when everything was there to be discovered, but not in our era of CAD and CFD systems and fuel crisis.

FAST FRED: I figure home designed does not pay. Unless a boat is very unusual or radical , there should be a thousand choices of fine boats that are proven, over decades (or centuries) of real world use. If the design is radical , only a big buck test tank will get those last few percent that was the reason for a radical design. Most sailors are conservative because so few "great ideas!" have worked out in the sea, as well as they looked on paper.
FF

And from the original poster:
Matt.D:


OK! i think of got it! dont be a fool! sounds like i could easily waste a lot of time and money and get nowhere fast! I think I will try and track down a set of plans for the desired shape I'm after. Thanks for all of your input. I'll post a thread for the plans I'm after shortly and hopefully someone will be able to help. Thanks again.
Matt D

In the end, I'm not sure how the end result for MattD was any different then what Ondarvr, WOG, and several others have been saying all along?

Interesting read though
 

ondarvr

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Re: Metal plate instead of plywood core for transom? Not the bandaid thing..

These are the in-depth kind of examples I was hoping for..
Scale models - Boat Design Forums

I'm on that site frequently, you will get the same answers there that you got here, only there are navel engineers and architects on that site. They deal with much larger craft than you are talking about though.

I think I also recommended an actual composited engineer if you wanted to get it right.
 
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kungpaoshizi

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Re: Metal plate instead of plywood core for transom? Not the bandaid thing..

Thanks for the tip on swamping, figured that out pretty quick though lol..

As far as that post as an example, someone asks a question, someone replies with an actual formula or undeniable example of physics.
It does not matter if the boat is the size of a continent or the size of a car, the physics and interactions between a boat and a water, is less complex than many things in life. If someone does not understand that, then I'm sorry, I can't help you.

I think the only real questions left for an engineer I have, would be, given tendencies of one of the materials to delaminate, which bonding agent would be most useful, the answer would probably be epoxy in general. (definitely not poly or vinyl)

Another question would be, what's the schedule? I mean ultimately let's say this lasts 100 years. (just an example, stop givin me grief lol)
What would be the first point of failure? Would it be due to bond to the boat, bond between layers, bond to the transom core, or perhaps cracks because of exhaustion of material (fiber orientation)

These are just some of the things to think about, mostly all, unless I'm going to sit down and rework calculations of the boat design itself.
But the modification of adding some extra material and several layers, is not a WILD design change, so it's unnecessary to rework design calculations. The worst thing I'll have, is a back heavy boat. (which could suck worse than others because it's a bass boat)

As far as updating progress, I probably will just for those who are interested, but I won't be discussing many things as I'm tired of the peanut gallery. (dam internet anyways right... lol)
 

73Chrysler105

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Re: Metal plate instead of plywood core for transom? Not the bandaid thing..

Bottom line I think you missed on one thing that boats need to be flexible and based on the materials you are planning to use the flexibility of the transom will be removed. This will cause more stress to be applied at the points of attachment for the transom. I hope you look into this and think about it when you are building it.

Imagine when a side is hit with a big wave the hull will flex slightly and the transom will slightly flex with it. If your transom does not flex then when the side flexes it will bend and stress as the stern corner. This will eventually cause failure. Take a piece of steel or aluminum quite stiff and hard and depending on the thickness somewhat flexible but bend it back and forth on the same point over and over again and it will break at that point.

Your motor wont flex but it will try to flex your transom and if it does not flex a little it will start to stress at the attachment points beyond the stiffness where it does flex again this will be the stern corners.
 

kungpaoshizi

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Re: Metal plate instead of plywood core for transom? Not the bandaid thing..

Ya, Chris I've taken this into consideration. Attempting to find algorithms for applicable scenarios has been tedious.
I'm of two minds about this though, one aspect is completely agreeable, the hull flexes. But at the same time, others have stated, "if your transom flexes, it needs to be replaced, it should not flex."

I've seen people debate back and forth on the subject, but one thing in particular that stood out to me was in a random forum post somewhere along the lines of one guy stating what you're talking about, it needs to flex with the rest of the boat.
But then another point which I think is noteworthy is another guys response, "If the hull is not stiff, it will indeed flex. But flex over time increases fatigue, leading to failure.

So there is quite a bit of mixed info. I am a bit surprised that "transom design" hasn't been more detailed in boat building more so than, "it must support the weight and pressures applied!"

After finding more things about it and differences of data, I'm almost tempted to say it might be best, if non-glass material is used, to be part of a sandwich construction(it must be mirrored on both sides), but have the non-glass material next to the transom core, and then proceed to add glass.
So glass layers>nonglass>transom core<nonglass<glass layers. But there is subjectivity to this about which would fail first? The core? Because it carries less of a load than the non-glass material, so when the non-glass fails, the core wouldn't have any support and then breaks? Or perhaps in the same scenario, the core still carries more load then the non-glass, and the failure occurs vice versa?

On another note because of those characteristics, it might be best to ONLY use the non-glass composites on the inner-most layer inside the boat and not all on the other side. Therefore it would take the majority of the stress off of the transom core and inner layers of glass, until failure, and then it would be easy enough to see the failure, vs, the failure happens internally. This would also allow for delamination of the composite from the glass, and wouldn't make a difference. (that is IF you use enough glass to support things structurally as a MINIMUM)

Then of course there's the thought of only using non-glass composites as EXTRA support aside from the repair design, and not as an actual laminate to allow stresses to be directed towards the glass laminate.

Of course this is all aside from the fact that Kevlar soaks water leading to premature delamination.

I'm still reading and speculating, but one thing I found curious as well, aside from this subject that I'm surprised I didn't find here.
People say left and right, "plywood is the way to go! it's been used for years etc etc, it works! just be sure it's sealed and maintained, no problems then!"

But come to find out, epoxy or other resins, NEVER seal 100%.
And there is always a certain degree of moisture ingression. It just takes time.

Not sure which direction I'm going to go, and as my boat isn't broken right now, I have time to think about it and review what would be best. Finding out the properties of S-glass, I'm tempted to go that route, though a limited top layer of non-glass composite structurally positioned may in fact be the best route. This would account for any failures in the non-glass, and make it a moot point. Though at the same time, any glass can delaminate, or break under proper circumstances. I'm thinking the key is going to be preparation, and structural design, and doing all layers at once.

Someone brought up the very good point of since it probably is chopped/sprayed fiberglass that the boat is constructed of, it really doesn't matter what I do, eventually I'll have a newer area of materials fighting against an older area of material, both different properties, thus leading to failure at that point. But I question how big of a concern that is, because I'm sure it would be more of a communal problem as people repair their boats.

This is another reason I'm not discounting non-glass composites. I'm sure if it were that big enough of a mistake and prone to failure, the general consensus of every fiberglassing/boat repair article would be precluded with, "WARNING: Never mix fiberglass with non-glass composites."

Thanks for the tip though, it has made me wonder validity of claims when talking about design. This might ultimately make me consider a foam cell stringer aside from the main supports that would run from stern to bow. That way I would get maximum structural stability and longevity, and when the original boat hull does come apart, I'll have to settle with walking away with an insurance check since there won't be any hope of further restoration... heh
 
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73Chrysler105

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Re: Metal plate instead of plywood core for transom? Not the bandaid thing..

2 things
1) There are threads on this site disucss the fact that no resins are waterproof just a differeing degree of water resistance.

1) I think the way you and anyone who does repairs to their boats manages the stresses at new to old areas of glass are by
a) grinding down to good glass at least 12" from any edge of repair.
b) layering repairs, extending each layer several inches out from the other covering the entire 12 inches from the repair that was ground down.
This gives good area to bite to for the mechanical bond for the repair and spreads the stress load of the repair over a larger contact area thus minimizing the possibility of new to old glass separation.

3) Yes the transom should flex but should not be a visible flex. People don't realize this but skyscrapers and long bridges are designed to sway in the wind not stand firm against them. One example is the 5 mile long mackinac bridge between the upper and lower penninsulas in Michigan. Every year they have a 5 mile walk across it with thousands of people on it walking in unison will create a sway on it. By being a little flexible it can absorb stresses with less material and bracing than it takes to be firm against such stress attacks. Most of the time the little flex is not seen or is substantiated thoughout the entire hull or in the case of the bridge the entire length of the bridge.

Another example is thinking about displacement, I have several boats one being a 8' wide beam by 21' long flat bottom fiberglass boat. This boat displaces so little water that with no motor or interior I could float it with the drain plug out and not take on water. I put 1800 pounds in the boat and it displaced less than 3" of water or it was barely over the drain plug and was still very easy to paddle around by hand. If I would have done this will any of my other boats I would have been at the gunwhales maybe a little lower but definitely not able to paddle them. What I am saying is if you want a lighter stricture spread your load out over a larger surface area. Instead of tabbing just 6-12" go to 12-24" or more or build up the layers in place each layer overlapping the other by 4-8"the first layer being the exact size of the transom the next extending to the hull sides and hull bottom 6" and the next extending beyond that another 6". You could also Alternate extended layers with an exact size layer. So exact size then 6" extension then exact layer and 12" extension.

One last note on this and flex the stiffer the boat is the less speed you can go in water that is not smooth. Meaning stiff hulls like in motorcycles with hard tales and no suspension are a very rough ride. Think of a balloon blown up to the largest size it can without blowing and squeeze it will pop, now blow it up 3/4 and squeeze it will expand. A little flex is good a lot is bad and none is bad. Finding the balance is not easy and that could be why would was always used since it is natures own time tested strength to flex variable. Aka Trees blowing in the wind, but as always too much wind and the tree will still snap and the skyscraper will still fall and the bridge will still collapse.
 
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