New winter's project, maybe - 196X Buehler Turbocraft

[george crolick]

Re: New winter's project, maybe - 196X Buehler Turbocraft

I have a 1959- 16 ft, ford 135hp. original, runs great, fun ride, encourage you to restore- would be interested in what you decide.

 

[erikgreen]

Re: New winter's project, maybe - 196X Buehler Turbocraft

Well, I haven't officially started the restore, but I did clean some junk out this evening.

The 2x former owner, the guy who liked to go to auctions, had all sorts of junk stored on top of her, so I pulled out fragments of glassware, a rotted paperback novel, christmas ornaments, one intact glass vase (I think?) and a few other bits.

Then I pulled a valve cover off the engine to check it out... it's odd. There are bits of rust on the tappets, but most of the parts under the cover are shiny, almost new looking. I sprayed on a bit of fogging oil to keep 'em that way.

I pulled all the plugs, snapping about half in the process (short socket) and checked condition. Most of them were ok, but the back 2 had some rust on them. Hard to say how bad the interior of the block will look.

But... I did find out the engine model. It's a Graymarine 215, the AMC Fireball v8 aluminum block (confirmed this by cleaning off some parts... lots o' aluminum) in 327 cubic inch displacement, 215 horsepower at 4200 RPM with the dual sidedraft carbs.

Looking at it I wouldn't be surprised if it needs a new generator (it has the 14? amp one) and starter. Too early to tell what shape the block is in... I need to finish my hoist off and pull the engine out for a teardown before I can determine that. I'll probably have to do that to get the engine out of the way to get the deck out anyway.

Still looks restoreable.

Erik

 

[redfury]

Re: New winter's project, maybe - 196X Buehler Turbocraft

The motor alone would be worth doing it for braggin' rights....who has side draft carbs anymore?! much less 2 of 'em! I'll donate some of that roll of mat if I still have any left if you do the resto!

 

[erikgreen]

Re: New winter's project, maybe - 196X Buehler Turbocraft

Heh, I'll keep the mat in mind.

The thing about the engine is I keep imagining what the sound of it would be like... sorta like this video on youtube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xwuoNXkJ2Y8

With the through-hull exhausts this thing would sound just amazing.

If I can make it work. :\

I really want to do it... just like I really want to finish my recumbent bike, really want to finish my scratch-built project, really want to get a social life....

Erik

 

[ezmobee]

Re: New winter's project, maybe - 196X Buehler Turbocraft

really want to get a social life....

I have a feeling this boat could GET you a social life

 

[MikDee]

Re: New winter's project, maybe - 196X Buehler Turbocraft

Heh, I'll keep the mat in mind.

The thing about the engine is I keep imagining what the sound of it would be like... sorta like this video on youtube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xwuoNXkJ2Y8

With the through-hull exhausts this thing would sound just amazing.

If I can make it work. :\

I really want to do it... just like I really want to finish my recumbent bike, really want to finish my scratch-built project, really want to get a social life....

Erik

A friend of mine had that car (a brand new 61' silver blue Buick special) with the all aluminum 215hp V8, I wonder if it's the same engine? It was a compact Buick, and it was pretty fast

I don't think it would be worth restoring, because I doubt they kept that engine in production for more then a few years, and it would probably be a nightmare to get parts, if at all?

Alot of the jet boats use Oldsmobile engines, I think the reason is, these engines have the shortest stroke, to bore ratio of all the GM engines. Short stroke design, delivers the most rpm, and gets there the quickest, just like the old Hi Perf Z28 302cu. in. motor, (when worked, these 302's reached 8-10,000rpm)

 

[erikgreen]

Re: New winter's project, maybe - 196X Buehler Turbocraft

Actually my understanding is that it's more than possible to get parts for the engine, in fact easier than eg. getting OMC stern drive parts. There's a car shop in illinois or somewhere that bought out the inventory of GrayMarine parts and the name when it was auctioned, so they have a lot of them.

There's also a vintage marine engine rebuild shop in New York that rebuilds the carbs on a regular basis.

Finally I guess these engines are popular with the hot rodder crowd, and they're well supported in the aftermarket.

So while it would be expensive if I had to replace eg. a short block, it's certainly possible to get the parts to get this engine running if I choose to do that.

I wouldn't replace the engine if I did the restore, that's half the point of restoring the boat

Erik

 

[MikDee]

Re: New winter's project, maybe - 196X Buehler Turbocraft

Actually my understanding is that it's more than possible to get parts for the engine, in fact easier than eg. getting OMC stern drive parts. There's a car shop in illinois or somewhere that bought out the inventory of GrayMarine parts and the name when it was auctioned, so they have a lot of them.

There's also a vintage marine engine rebuild shop in New York that rebuilds the carbs on a regular basis.

Finally I guess these engines are popular with the hot rodder crowd, and they're well supported in the aftermarket.

So while it would be expensive if I had to replace eg. a short block, it's certainly possible to get the parts to get this engine running if I choose to do that.

I wouldn't replace the engine if I did the restore, that's half the point of restoring the boat

Erik

You never mentioned if this is the same engine as the Buick/Oldsmobile aluminum block 215hp V8?
If it is, that was a potent, lightweight, compact V8

But 215hp is not much for that boat.

The compact Buick Special, & Oldsmobile Starfire (I think that was the name?) both had that engine, and the Pontiac Tempest Le Mans was not even produced yet until 1963, the next year 1964, the Chevelle was introduced, and all the GM compact clones got bigger.

Sorry, Correction, the Olds version was called an F85, here's a good video example:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OgYg5D5JwCg&feature=related

 

[erikgreen]

Re: New winter's project, maybe - 196X Buehler Turbocraft

I don't know for certain, but I'm pretty sure it's the same as the Buick/Olds engine. 215 horsepower should do pretty well for an 17.5 foot boat, even with a jet drive I would think.

I do know the original manufacturer actually had started with smaller engines in these boats and went to larger ones as they sold them to get better performance. I'm sure the jet could handle it.

If you look at the videos I posted earlier in the thread showing the boat in Kelowna, it seems like it does ok for speed. I'd expect maybe 35-40 mph, and I've read that other owners have used them to pull up 2-3 skiers at a time since you can rev the engine full before engaging the jet.

I've seen plenty of the newer jet boats with the Olds 455 engines and jacuzzi drives, and frankly I don't like anything about 'em. Most of them are impractical go-fast types with metal flake paint and engines that look like they're big enough to plane on their own

I'd rather have something like this... vintage, fun, sounding cool.

Erik

Edit: Thinking about it, if I did replace the engine, I'd probably put in a regular 5.7 vortec chevy small block. Looking at the drive train I'm certain I could adapt almost any engine to it, it's really simple.

 

[Willyclay]

Re: New winter's project, maybe - 196X Buehler Turbocraft

You young guys have my old brain spinning about engines. So, I pulled out my 1967 Motor's Repair Manual just to see what I might learn. First, the BOP aluminum V8 was 215 cubic inches, not horsepower! It showed up as 155HP/2BRL and 185HP/4BRL versions in 1961. The engine rights were eventually sold to British Leyland and it appeared in MGB's/MGC's in the late 1970's. It lastly was used by Rover until just a few years ago.

AMC/Rambler lists a 215HP/4BRL, 250CID, V8 from 1959-1961. They also list a 250HP/2BRL, 327CID, V8 from 1960-1966. They had a 270HP/4BRL version from 1959-1966. Only info about aluminum blocks is an OHV-6-196 that came in both cast iron and aluminum flavors from 1959-1965.

I recognize these are automotive applications and marine products could differ widely. Hope you can find the time to restore this great boating icon!

 

[MikDee]

Re: New winter's project, maybe - 196X Buehler Turbocraft

I don't know for certain, but I'm pretty sure it's the same as the Buick/Olds engine. 215 horsepower should do pretty well for an 17.5 foot boat, even with a jet drive I would think.

I do know the original manufacturer actually had started with smaller engines in these boats and went to larger ones as they sold them to get better performance. I'm sure the jet could handle it.

If you look at the videos I posted earlier in the thread showing the boat in Kelowna, it seems like it does ok for speed. I'd expect maybe 35-40 mph, and I've read that other owners have used them to pull up 2-3 skiers at a time since you can rev the engine full before engaging the jet.

I've seen plenty of the newer jet boats with the Olds 455 engines and jacuzzi drives, and frankly I don't like anything about 'em. Most of them are impractical go-fast types with metal flake paint and engines that look like they're big enough to plane on their own

I'd rather have something like this... vintage, fun, sounding cool.

Erik

Edit: Thinking about it, if I did replace the engine, I'd probably put in a regular 5.7 vortec chevy small block. Looking at the drive train I'm certain I could adapt almost any engine to it, it's really simple.

I got it, I know all about the nostalgia idea I had it for a short while with this boat, it would do 38mph, & sounded great, it was Sweet! but the plywood bottom was soft, so rather then take it apart, turn it upside down, & replace, or glass the bottom I sold it quick.
http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v...current=17ftHigginsSpeedboat135Greymarine.jpg

 

[erikgreen]

Re: New winter's project, maybe - 196X Buehler Turbocraft

Cool, that's interesting stuff.

Here's what I know.

This is a Graymarine model 215 (per the attached ID plate) which according to the docs I have (example PDF here: http://www.engine-cemberci.com/engine/GRAYMARINE/1.pdf, page 1, I have the dual Carter YH sidedraft carbs) is a 215 HP at 4200 RPM 327 CI block.

I've verified that it's aluminum by looking at the metal There's no rust of course, just dirt and a tiny bit of white oxide here and there.

According to the info I have this is the V8 produced for two years in 1961 and 1962 before it became cheaper and easier to produce a cast iron 6 cylinder version that performed almost the same. The 6 cylinder engine was essentially the same design minus two cylinders, in cast iron.

As you can see in the brochure specs this same block with a four barrel downdraft carb rates at 238HP at 4400 RPM, or 188 at 400 RPM.

I've heard of the Gray 215s being used in a lot of boats from that age, including some others (like Century boats) that had the Turbocraft jet drive as an option. There were also twin inboard boats that used them and single screw inboards. Despite having been produced only a couple years it seems to have been a widely used engine.

Erik

 

[hydrodynamic]

Re: New winter's project, maybe - 196X Buehler Turbocraft

Hey Erik,

I too had a boat load of projects once... lotsa time, lotsa beer, nooo money. Now I have a bit more money, but no time, lotsa kids, and a bride. Go figure. God does have a sense of humor, doesn't he? A note on the turbocraft: It will do a 360 when pushed. Did one, once -shat in my drawers! Never again though. Like I said, lotsa kids and a bride. I Like to live to fight another day. Yeah... a 2400 lb jet ski, it aint! look forward to more info and updates on the J-35. Secretly, it was a pretty thrilling ride.

-Phil

 

[erikgreen]

Re: New winter's project, maybe - 196X Buehler Turbocraft

I have a feeling this boat could GET you a social life

Heh, that's what I've been dreaming


(at the dock on lake Minnetonka) Vvvvvvrrrrrrmmmmm... wap wap wap wap wap wap wap wap vvvvvvvVVVVVVRRRRRMMMMMM....

"Hey ladies, care to go for a ride?"

 

[MikDee]

Re: New winter's project, maybe - 196X Buehler Turbocraft

Hey Eric, according to your document, that engine is not aluminum! Look at the weight (Standard 924lbs/Compact 840lbs) It maybe even heavier then a small block Chevy

 

[erikgreen]

Re: New winter's project, maybe - 196X Buehler Turbocraft

Yeah, I found that confusing too.

But looking at the engine itself, the flywheel housing is aluminum (and it looks to be part of the block) and the top of the block (where an SBC would have an intake manifold) is aluminum.

I guess more investigation is needed. I'm sure of the model since it's on the name plate. Maybe that brochure is from another year?

I'm working on my engine hoist tonight.. no matter what else I do with the boat the engine will need to come out, and once I do that I can take a real close look.

Erik

 

[MikDee]

Re: New winter's project, maybe - 196X Buehler Turbocraft

I see, a quagmire for sure!

I also noticed, that the bore, & stroke of that motor is exactly the same as a 327 Chevy 4" X 3 1/4" but the heads, & block design, don't look like Chevy?

That somewhat large bore, short stroke design, is made for rpm! The only way they regained torque out of a 302, or 327, Chevy was with 10:00X1, or 11.00X1 compression ratio, and a propper cam.

I had a 300hp/327 yrs ago in a 62' Impala SS 4spd, it had 10:00X1 compression flat top pistons, large valve (double hump) heads, a factory high rise manifold with a carter AFB-D carb (409 carb), a mild hydraulic cam, & large 2 1/4" dual exhaust, all factory stock delivering 300hp, it loved to pull to 6k, and redline at 7k

 

[erikgreen]

Re: New winter's project, maybe - 196X Buehler Turbocraft

The motor design was originally created by Rambler(renamed to AMC) corporation for car use. It's very different from the chevy small blocks, I've read it more resembles the Chevy big blocks than the small ones, but it's not related to either of them design wise.

As WillyClay noted the design was sold to Land Rover and used by them for a long time. The v6 cast iron version was used a long time too.

I don't have torque specs yet on it.

I am not actually sure whether a hamilton jet pump needs high torque or rpm to deliver a lot of power.... I'll have to find that out at some point.

Plus I need to get the docs for this thing... I found a CD on ebay that has them, or I can get paper versions from GrayMarine.

So far all my parts inquiries have turned up sources. Carbs, manifolds, generator, etc can all be had at "reasonable" prices. I'd only be sunk if I had a cracked block or something.

Erik

 

[LukeinNY]

Re: New winter's project, maybe - 196X Buehler Turbocraft

Hey Erik. I know it's been a long time since you posted this thread about your Buehler but I was wondering if you are parting it out? I'm interested in the engine. Let me know. Thanks

 

[roostH20]

Re: New winter's project, maybe - 196X Buehler Turbocraft

Want to see what 400 horses looks & sounds like in a Turbocraft. . .

Top speed. . .68 mph. . .0 to 60. . .5 seconds. . .eats big blocks for lunch. . .priceless. . .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FFTwa20IpYk

400 sbc 4blt, 750 Holley, 11:1 compression, highflow alum heads, mean impellers for the 3 stage. . .equals a 3 1/2 inch column of water 120 ft. . .boats nickname. . .duck plucker. . .use your imagination. . .later. . .