No Reverse

[xdgt03]

I recently changed out my distributor to the Delco Voyager from the Prestolite. Everything is working perfectly....except.

It stalls going into reverse. It goes into forward perfect. I watched the load sensing lever (the one with the v-notches) and when it goes into forward the sensing lever moves twice, returning the shift interrupt lever to the center v-notch. When going into reverse it does not bump back to the center position.

What would cause this? I couldn't see what even causes it to return to the center when going into forward. Is it something in the shift cable?

 

[HT32BSX115]

Re: No Reverse

I recently changed out my distributor to the Delco Voyager from the Prestolite. Everything is working perfectly....except.

It stalls going into reverse. It goes into forward perfect. I watched the load sensing lever (the one with the v-notches) and when it goes into forward the sensing lever moves twice, returning the shift interrupt lever to the center v-notch. When going into reverse it does not bump back to the center position.

What would cause this? I couldn't see what even causes it to return to the center when going into forward. Is it something in the shift cable?

It sounds a LOT like the lower shift cable is slightly out of adjustment and/or the cable is taking a little too much force to move the shifter in the drive.

The ESA should not activate when going INTO gear. But should activate when coming out of gear (and only when it's in the water)

 

[xdgt03]

Re: No Reverse

Do you know what causes the load sensing lever to move twice? I know it has some spring mechanism that puts in under tension when it begins to move. But as the throttle remote is moved forward the lever returns to the center position. I couldn't see what caused this. I have the manual but I haven't located a section that describes it's movement other than to say the shift interrupt lever should rest in the middle of the v-notch. I assume what ever makes it move twice is either out of adjustment like you said, or binding.

BTW, the esa was eliminated with the conversion to the Delco Voyager electronic ignition, as well as the overstoke switch.

 

[HT32BSX115]

Re: No Reverse

Do you know what causes the load sensing lever to move twice? I know it has some spring mechanism that puts in under tension when it begins to move. But as the throttle remote is moved forward the lever returns to the center position. I couldn't see what caused this. I have the manual but I haven't located a section that describes it's movement other than to say the shift interrupt lever should rest in the middle of the v-notch. I assume what ever makes it move twice is either out of adjustment like you said, or binding.

BTW, the esa was eliminated with the conversion to the Delco Voyager electronic ignition, as well as the overstoke switch.

Lets get on the same sheet of music.....

Is what you're calling the "Load Sensing Lever", #37(shift Actuator) in the picture below?

Now, to understand how it should work, notice that when the shift quadrant puts a linear (push-pull) force on the cable, the Shift Actuator will try to move against the Shift interrupter Spring (#40).

This is because the cable is held in place slightly offset from the center (1/4"-1/2" or so) of Shift actuators "Pivot Shaft" (#38)


In reality, the shift actuator would probably move a little every time you move the shifter up front, but when going into (either FWD or REV) gear, the force required to actually shift the drive shouldn't be enough to completely overcome the Shift Interrupter spring.

(Like LouC says......."it should shift with 2 fingers".....and my previously installed King Cobra DID!)


Now since the shift DOGS are slightly undercut (2 degrees on early models, 5 degrees on later ones etc) The force required to pull them apart is going to be (and should be) much higher!....... so high that the engine torque must be "interrupted" briefly while you are holding pressure on the shifter with your hand. ......... (and the Shift Interrupter Spring will be fully "depressed" actuating the ESA)

The ESA pulses your ignition and the shift Dogs separate during a brief "torque-LOW"

It's probably not as important when the cable is in tension but when it's compression, you can only "push" so hard on the cable before it begins to cause problems to the cable and/or jacket......


This is why the OMC drives ended up with the ESA. Simply interrupting the ignition apparently didn't provide enough torque drop to reliably separate the dogs every time....they had to design an electronic device to cause torque pulses because an interrupter would just kill the engine before the dogs would separate.

(dogs are sometimes hard to separate....:facepalm: ......... you have to spray water on them and keep your fingers away from their mouths!!!!)


Anyway, if yours has the 5 degree (under-cut) dogs they might be even harder to separate without an ESA)

Since you removed yours.....I don't know how you're going to get it to work well and reliably. ........ It may work for a while but the cable may bend in compression when trying to get it out of the gear requires "pushing" on the cable..........

 

[xdgt03]

Re: No Reverse

Yes, shift actuator is what I'm talking about. Sorry I thought it was called the other thing in the manual.

The conversion kit for OMC from the Prestolite distributor to the Delco distributor required the elimination of the esa and the overstroke or so the instructions said. I believe there is an internal esa system inside the new distributor.

There is what I would say the right amount of pressure in shifting. It moves freely and feels right. I've been driving boats for 30 years but only working on them recently. So I think I can tell the difference between too much and too little effort in the shift remote.

What makes the shift actuator move so the shift interrupt lever hits the high spot to cut the engine and then fall back to the neutral position so the shift interrupt lever is back in the v-notch? When you move the shift remote forward the actuator moves and as you continue to move the remote forward the actuator falls back to it's neutral position. What part causes this to fall back. It is sprung by the spring (#40) but what causes the spring to release the pressure so the actuator falls so the shift interrupt lever is not staying on the high spot of the actuator. What ever makes it do that in forward is not working going into reverse.

 

[HT32BSX115]

Re: No Reverse

What makes the shift actuator move so the shift interrupt lever hits the high spot to cut the engine and then fall back to the neutral position so the shift interrupt lever is back in the v-notch?

Well,

If you look at it as a simple lever, force on the shift cable would cause the shift actuator to move against the spring. Since the force required to go into gear shouldn't be enough to move it very far against the spring it would still move, but it shouldn't be far enough to activate the switches.

Now assume the boat is in the water, IN GEAR, in idle. (because you would NEVER try to shift to neutral above idle)

There'll be considerably more force required to separate the shift dogs so you would try to move the shift handle, but the only thing to move would be the shift actuator until it activated (the removed) ESA............

THEN when the ESA activated, the dogs would separate and the shift cable would move (also) causing the shift actuator to be re-centered by the "spring" once the drive shifted into neutral.

 

[xdgt03]

Re: No Reverse

So assume the new ignition is taking the place of the esa module that is now disconnected (per the instructions) and is working as designed when going into forward, would you still say that it is a lower cable adjustment that is the culprit? The actuator is touching the stops both shifting into forward and reverse.

BTW, thanks for walking me through this.

 

[HT32BSX115]

Re: No Reverse

So assume the new ignition is taking the place of the esa module that is now disconnected (per the instructions) and is working as designed when going into forward, would you still say that it is a lower cable adjustment that is the culprit? The actuator is touching the stops both shifting into forward and reverse.

I don't know how your "new" ignition is working. That is, I don't know if I can assume that it will produce the same type of ignition "pulsing" that the ESA did......Now having said that, it may work just fine after all.

If you were shifting the drive with the engine OFF and the boat out of the water (so someone could turn the prop while you were shifting INTO gear) The drive would shift properly if everything is adjusted correctly. It would also shift OUT OF GEAR the same way. That is the shift rod would move the correct amount for into and out of gear travel.

Maladjustment can cause you to shift too far into one gear and not far enough into the other. It's why it's so critical to do the adjustment exactly how OMC says to do it. If you don't shift far enough into a gear the "dogs" may not stay (or pull) together and cause damage.

A sticky (internally bent or corroded) cable can cause the ESA problems that a lot of people have because it binds and causes the shift actuator to move when it shouldn't and the esa to activate....

Once you see how it all works, fixing it is fairly easy. (I learned how they work on my previous King Cobra)

Mine shifted perfectly. I sold the manual with the drive so I wouldn't even try to describe how to adjust one now.....other than to say do it like the manual suggests....it worked for me.....and I consider myself a novice!!

 

[xdgt03]

Re: No Reverse

Here is a video of what I'm talking about. The actuator is moving back to neutral and then to a point when going into forward but it does not go into neutral at all when going into reverse.
The video shows it going into forward first and then into reverse and finally back to forward.
[video]http://s7.photobucket.com/albums/y257/xdgt03/?action=view&current=VIDEO0007.mp4[/video]

 

[HT32BSX115]

Re: No Reverse

Here is a video of what I'm talking about. The actuator is moving back to neutral and then to a point when going into forward but it does not go into neutral at all when going into reverse.
The video shows it going into forward first and then into reverse and finally back to forward.
[video]http://s7.photobucket.com/albums/y257/xdgt03/?action=view&current=VIDEO0007.mp4[/video]

Nice job on the video!

Was that taken with the boat in the water tethered to a dock?

 

[xdgt03]

Re: No Reverse

OK. I determined:

The cable is fubar'd. The reason it is stuck on the tooth when going into reverse is because the cable is binding. I proved this by removing the end attached to the shift mechanism on the top of the motor and figured out that the reason the actuator falls back to the notch is because the tension on the cable is released once it has shifted into gear. When going into reverse the cable is binding. This causes the boat to stall because the shift interrupt stays on the tooth. It actually would shift into gear if the engine didn't stall.

So, new cable, gimbal bearing, and bellows on order.

The video was from my phone so it is not too good. The boat was out of the water.

 

[HT32BSX115]

Re: No Reverse

So, new cable, gimbal bearing, and bellows on order.

The video was from my phone so it is not too good. The boat was out of the water.

WOOHOO!

now ensure that you adjust the cable properly........Then test it tethered, IN THE WATER!

It'll always shift easily out of the water or with the engine not running (and someone turning the prop by hand....)

 

[gdombroski]

Re: No Reverse

So assume the new ignition is taking the place of the esa module that is now disconnected (per the instructions) and is working as designed when going into forward, would you still say that it is a lower cable adjustment that is the culprit? The actuator is touching the stops both shifting into forward and reverse.

If you disconnected the ESA, the two plugs, it has no power to do anything and the actuator and overstroke switches are thus neutered.

 

[gdombroski]

Re: No Reverse

I believe there is an internal esa system inside the new distributor.

How would a distributor know when you are shifting?

 

[bruceb58]

Re: No Reverse

From the video, it looks like the shift switch is activating going onto gear, which it shouldn't.

edit: I see you realized its the cable already.