Not trying to be PC, actually anti racist

[JB]

Re: Not trying to be PC, actually anti racist

I cannot look at a person without seeing skin tone, facial structure, etc.

What is important is that I no longer think that defines him/her any more than I think that blue eyes vs brown eyes define a person. I grew up in the segregated, bigot ridden south of the 30s and 40s and had to unlearn the stereotypes that were drilled into me as a small child.

I unlearned them by personally experiencing the stereotyped people and discovering (sometimes to my great surprize) that they weren't like that at all. They were simply people. . .just like me.

We prejudge only when we have no useful facts from which to judge and expect stereotyping to be useful. Why the stereotypes are so often negative and incorrect is something I cannot explain or forgive.

 

[achris]

Re: Not trying to be PC, actually anti racist

Question... We all like to be lighthearted, yes? So when does being lighthearted cross the line and become racist? To me it seems that line is moving, and has done for so many years.

Another question.... Who brings up the race issue? Example... A group in my neighbourhood were terrorizing the place. A bunch of disgruntled neighbours confronted said group.... After a torrent of abuse they said that we were only doing this to them (asking them to tone it down a bit) because they were black. Up to that point nobody even mentioned it, or made even the slightest remark about it. It was them who pulled the race issue into the conversation. So, my next question is... How do you deal with people who play on the race difference as a justification for their behaviour?

Over to you....

 

[ezbtr]

Re: Not trying to be PC, actually anti racist

Wow, tough one...alls I know is one of my best buds is another color, and in PRIVATE or around friends THEY may say the "n" word, I won't out of respect, but I could and they would be fine. But I gotta tell you, the funniest thing I heard during refinery construction from MY buddy , when I jumped into back of truck with all of EVERYONE was "hey you not a XXXXXX. go ride in the front!" But he and others were laughing asses off, i beleive - as they KNEW i didnt care, and i didnt/dont.... , hell I rode in the back, was more fun, they were my buds!

 

[gonefishie]

Re: Not trying to be PC, actually anti racist

So, my next question is... How do you deal with people who play on the race difference as a justification for their behaviour?

Over to you....

Consider them ignorance and move on. They will bring you down to their level if you continue to argue with them.

 

[Mark_VTfisherman]

Re: Not trying to be PC, actually anti racist

Consider them ignorance and move on. They will bring you down to their level if you continue to argue with them.

When all else fails, the banal debaters will always throw a dart that the true ignorant will try to catch. In reality the banal are merely looking to find an object to focus their own unrest and anger on, thus obfuscating the real issues which could perhaps be resolved to mutual benefit.

I agree: just walk away.

 

[Tim Frank]

Re: Not trying to be PC, actually anti racist

Quite true, but you completely missed my point. I have no problem with what a person chooses to "label" themselves.

My objection is when others refer to our "black/African American" President or to the "black/African American" golfing great. Neither of these gentlemen describe themselves as such.

Each of these men have names and titles to which their ethnicity or multi-ethnicity is completely irrelevant.

Barack Hussein Obama is President of The United States of America.

Tiger Woods is probably the greatest professional golfer ever.

The unspoken "in spite of being. . . " is left out, but hangs in the air.

The media only rarely do that to sports celebrities. Wouldn't you be shocked to hear the great baseball players referred to as "the caucasian/white player, Joe DiMaggio" or "the black/African American player, Willie Mays" ??

JB, that may be your perception, but as a fairly objective observer from north of the border, I think you are being overly sensitive to this.

The election of Barrack Obama was huge worldwide; the inauguration was a celebration that was remarkable for what it really meant in terms of the maturation of your great nation. I believe it is not, in most cases, an inferred "in spite of" as it is a well-earned "how about that!"

Same with Tiger (despite a few current speed bumps in his career path ....).
Still another raising of the bar by you guys.
Golf was probably the latest to really drop any colour barriers; in my life time there was a day when Tiger would not have been allowed at Augusta except as a caddy....now he is a multiple Green jacket winner, and genuinely revered as a golfer...and until recently, as a man of character and as a model family man.
I don't think the media frenzy around Tiger is much worse than it was around Bill Clinton when his....ummm...."friends" started to surface. Slick Willy sailed through that pretty much unscathed, but left behind a wealth of pretty clever parodies, jokes, and stories.
Mentioning that Tiger is a <pick your adjective> golfer, I think is a positive thing as much as anything.

 

[JB]

Re: Not trying to be PC, actually anti racist

Good points, Tim, but I think you are still a little bit off my point.

Yes, I am more sensitive to this than many, having grown up in the quagmire of segregation and hate and fighting it tooth and nail all the way. For much of my life I was embarrassed and guilt ridden because my pale skin and blue eyes automatically assigned me a higher "value" in society and in the eyes of the law than my dark skinned brothers and sisters. There is a lot of sensitive scar tissue there.

I wholly agree that the election of President Obama and the reverence with which Mr. Woods is held are evidence of a maturing (but not yet mature) ". . all men are created equal. . ." in our country. When it is mature no notice will be taken of the tone of their skin or the fact that ONE of their parents was of African descent.

Yes, there are in our heritage some dispeakably horrible and derisive "labels" for persons of mixed heritage. In my youth I hated the LAW that required persons of 1/32 or more African blood to be designated as African. . .or whatever term was in vogue at the time. . .and subject to all of the legal penalties attached thereto.

Folks, there is only one "race" of humans; Homo Sapien. There are variations in physical characteristics and there are variations in culture but we are all Homo Sapien. That is all the label we need.

 

[lowkee]

Re: Not trying to be PC, actually anti racist

I guess I don't understand this attitude since in many cases a person chooses their own "label." Sometimes you have to refer to a person's ethnic background, just like you would their religion or gender. Some of the terms are flat-out racist and a sensitive person knows not to use them. Some are dated--referring more to skin color than origins. "Negro" for example is obviously a term that most people wouldn't use. Sometimes a person needs to refer to his or her own origins. So why not respect a person who chooses to say "African-American" instead of "Black"? Are they black in color? Certainly not. Do we need to bring ancestry up when we discuss some people? You're the one who brought up Obama and Tiger Woods.

I think a person has a right to choose what he or she would prefer to be called. Tiger Woods doesn't describe himself as "African-American." He says he's "mixed." Some people don't like that term either, since it has connotations that go back to words like "mulatto" and "mestiza" which are derogatory. However if it's how he views his heritage, who am I to say "sorry, you can't say that about yourself"?

I think any group with a history of being labeled in a derogatory manner by others--especially when those labels were "official" or "governmental," has a right to choose a "name" that they feel fits them better. Why would that make you angry?

I think this is a classic case of political correctness and has nothing to do with human respect, or honesty. There are no racist words, just as there are no murderous guns. There are people who are racist, no matter what words come out of their mouths. Telling people to be 'sensitive' is simply saying a person who is racist should hide it. Frankly, I'd prefer a racist person show it, so they can be demonized in the same public manner.

Personally, I don't see an issue with bringing up skin color when describing someone (or many someones). It is no less descriptive than "That fat girl with the crooked nose and big forehead with one ear lower than the other". I'm willing to bet at least some part of that statement gave nearly every political correctness supporter a coronary because somehow describing a person physically isn't allowed in their messed up mind.

Equating skin color, eye height, nose straightness, number of fingers or toes as indicative as to a person's personality is perfectly stupid, and I don't think that can argued much, outside of psychological effects on self image. What I consider not stupid and perfectly reasonable is reading a person's dress, grooming, body language and speech cues and make an educated guess as to personality based on prior experience, otherwise known a pre-judging. Will you always be correct? Not likely. Is it better to give each person a full chance and get to know them individually? Not very often. People simply don't have time to get to know every single person they come in contact with. Everyone (yes, even political correctness pushers) must profile people. We're all prejudiced and need to be in order to function with any semblance of efficiency. A racist person is simply a normal person who uses anecdotal criteria when judging a person.

Conversely, I think to automatically attack someone who may have simply had bad luck with previous encounters with people is equally folly. A fair comparison is someone who has had bad luck with multiple red cars. Is every red car bad? Probably not, but to this person the chances of running across a decent, or even nice red car is unlikely enough to not bother looking anymore. Given the car situation, you wouldn't call him a "carist" and write him off as an evil person. You'd argue that you have seen decent red cars and maybe he just had bad luck in the past. Maybe he should check out a red car you or a friend know of as evidence they aren't all the same. If he ignores evidence to the contrary, well, at least you tried and didn't simply remain silent and enable the behavior.

 

[rjlipscomb]

Re: Not trying to be PC, actually anti racist

My wife is Cuban (you wouldn't know it unless you were told). My family loves her. There are some cultural differences that cause problems now and then.

When I was in college, there was a big push to remove all segregation barriers. However, some people choose to identify themselves as "African-American" and they had their own "Black Student Union". It seems to me that these people want to be seen and treated as different. The skin color is obviously, we are not blind. But, they are "Americans" to me unless they are indeed from another country. If someone has German descent, it may not be obvious and for them to self describe themselves as ?German Heritage? makes sense. But I cannot recall anyone calling themselves ?German-American?. (Well, may be I used to hear it.) Wanting to maintain one?s cultural heritage seems reasonable. But for the good of the country, please bring your culture into ours so we may all benefit from the differences which fill the gaps and makes us stronger. Most of us came from someplace else. But once here, we became Americans. Just my thoughts?

 

[lowkee]

Re: Not trying to be PC, actually anti racist

Are Americans the only wackos who insist on this whole <insert other country>-American crap? Do people do this in other countries? Are there peopel who call themselves African-Canadians or Icelandic-Swedes or Swazilandic-Brazilians? Where does it end?

From here on out, if anyone refers to me as anything other than a German-Canadian-French-American I will be horribly offended and call you a racist. And there had better be that exact combination as a check box on any forms I fill out or I'm calling the NAAPHP (National Association for the Advancement of Pink Hued People).

 

[mphy98]

Re: Not trying to be PC, actually anti racist

A few years ago I was at my cousin Cliffie's 40th birthday. Cliffie is darker than I am by a lot. He makes 350k and up a year in Chicago and is quite the gentleman. I saw a different side that I did not know existed at the party. He had 3 of his co workers over and they were all talking ghetto english. I was very surprised as I have never heard that from him in 40 years of knowing him. I asked him when did he start speaking jive? One of his friends made the statement " oh oh, look out for the cracker getting uppity". I retorted yeah just watching the n*****s dance. You should have seen the fire in their eyes. It was ok for them to call me names and use racial slurs but not the other way around. They were calling me a racist bastard, and everything else under the sun. My cousin came to my defense and said he has never even heard me say that word before let alone be racist. Not that I have never said it before, Just never in front of him. So I asked these guys (none of which are married yet) If they were in one of Chicago's better bars and they saw the girl of their dreams next to them and they were speaking ghetto and acting the fool, would this lady give them a second look even though they were wearing Armani suits? Or would she wonder if they were drug dealers just out for a score. Now I said if you were talking like you have all your life and in the same situation, would the woman feel more likely to accept an advance form a member of your party. I know that it may sound harsh but this is the world we live in. These guys all did a little soul searching for a while and each one realized that maybe this was the reason they had not found a girl of class and such that they wanted to spend the rest of their life with. Cliffie is now engaged and credits that conversation with him finding his bride to be. We are as close as ever and I will be his best man, even though I am a bit older. Sometimes you just have to ask a question and confront racism for what it is both ways. The world is what it is and we cannot change it by laws, only education and compassion.

 

[cheburashka]

Re: Not trying to be PC, actually anti racist

A few years ago I was at my cousin Cliffie's 40th birthday. Cliffie is darker than I am by a lot. He makes 350k and up a year in Chicago and is quite the gentleman. I saw a different side that I did not know existed at the party. He had 3 of his co workers over and they were all talking ghetto english. I was very surprised as I have never heard that from him in 40 years of knowing him. I asked him when did he start speaking jive? One of his friends made the statement " oh oh, look out for the cracker getting uppity". I retorted yeah just watching the n*****s dance. You should have seen the fire in their eyes. It was ok for them to call me names and use racial slurs but not the other way around. They were calling me a racist bastard, and everything else under the sun. My cousin came to my defense and said he has never even heard me say that word before let alone be racist. Not that I have never said it before, Just never in front of him. So I asked these guys (none of which are married yet) If they were in one of Chicago's better bars and they saw the girl of their dreams next to them and they were speaking ghetto and acting the fool, would this lady give them a second look even though they were wearing Armani suits? Or would she wonder if they were drug dealers just out for a score. Now I said if you were talking like you have all your life and in the same situation, would the woman feel more likely to accept an advance form a member of your party. I know that it may sound harsh but this is the world we live in. These guys all did a little soul searching for a while and each one realized that maybe this was the reason they had not found a girl of class and such that they wanted to spend the rest of their life with. Cliffie is now engaged and credits that conversation with him finding his bride to be. We are as close as ever and I will be his best man, even though I am a bit older. Sometimes you just have to ask a question and confront racism for what it is both ways. The world is what it is and we cannot change it by laws, only education and compassion.

You really think a Black man calling you a cracker has the same relevance as you saying "I'm watching the n*****s dance"? Call me politically correct all you want, but in my book what you did was completely out of bounds. I'm surprised you got out of it without a bit more understanding of what it's like to be African-American--delivered in the form of a black eye.

 

[gonefishie]

Re: Not trying to be PC, actually anti racist

You really think a Black man calling you a cracker has the same relevance as you saying "I'm watching the n*****s dance"? Call me politically correct all you want, but in my book what you did was completely out of bounds. I'm surprised you got out of it without a bit more understanding of what it's like to be African-American--delivered in the form of a black eye.

a racial slur is a racial slur doesn't matter who, when, why or how it was said. Just because one is more socially acceptable then the others doesn't make it ok.

 

[cheburashka]

Re: Not trying to be PC, actually anti racist

I think this is a classic case of political correctness and has nothing to do with human respect, or honesty. There are no racist words, just as there are no murderous guns. There are people who are racist, no matter what words come out of their mouths. Telling people to be 'sensitive' is simply saying a person who is racist should hide it. Frankly, I'd prefer a racist person show it, so they can be demonized in the same public manner.

What if the person doesn't know they're being racist? I had a kid in a class once talk about how he got "jewed" in a deal. Another talked about how he "n*****-rigged" his car. In both cases there was no racism intended, but you can bet I pointed out to them that such language wasn't appropriate in a college classroom, in the workplace, or around people you don't know really well. I agree with you--I prefer a racist who shows his true colors. Then again, some people aren't aware of the racism inherent in things they say. And yes, there ARE racist words. No doubt about it. There are words that are engineered to cut and to humiliate based on race, class, and gender. Ask a lady friend about the "C" word. Or is that just another harmless bit of language?

Personally, I don't see an issue with bringing up skin color when describing someone (or many someones). It is no less descriptive than "That fat girl with the crooked nose and big forehead with one ear lower than the other". I'm willing to bet at least some part of that statement gave nearly every political correctness supporter a coronary because somehow describing a person physically isn't allowed in their messed up mind.

I'm not having a coronary, but I don't see how that has any connection to racism. If you used the above description to characterize the local newscaster I'd say "that's her all right." If you used it to characterize my wife, I'd get angry at you. I don't know anyone who has a problem with describing someone by skin color provided that they do so in a polite way. That's just common sense. Common sense also defines when something is flat out rude. Saying to a colleague: "There's a Hispanic girl in class who always falls asleep" seems fine to me. Saying "You--the Mexican girl in the corner--wake up" doesn't.

Equating skin color, eye height, nose straightness, number of fingers or toes as indicative as to a person's personality is perfectly stupid, and I don't think that can argued much, outside of psychological effects on self image. What I consider not stupid and perfectly reasonable is reading a person's dress, grooming, body language and speech cues and make an educated guess as to personality based on prior experience, otherwise known a pre-judging. Will you always be correct? Not likely. Is it better to give each person a full chance and get to know them individually? Not very often. People simply don't have time to get to know every single person they come in contact with. Everyone (yes, even political correctness pushers) must profile people. We're all prejudiced and need to be in order to function with any semblance of efficiency. A racist person is simply a normal person who uses anecdotal criteria when judging a person.

Absolutely true, except that they often confuse the importance of the various criteria they use. My MIL can't tell a gang member from a Hispanic. As a result, she's constantly afraid of bag boys, high school students and members of her own church. A bit of well-informed prejudice goes a long way, but racism is seldom well-informed.

Conversely, I think to automatically attack someone who may have simply had bad luck with previous encounters with people is equally folly. A fair comparison is someone who has had bad luck with multiple red cars. Is every red car bad? Probably not, but to this person the chances of running across a decent, or even nice red car is unlikely enough to not bother looking anymore. Given the car situation, you wouldn't call him a "carist" and write him off as an evil person. You'd argue that you have seen decent red cars and maybe he just had bad luck in the past. Maybe he should check out a red car you or a friend know of as evidence they aren't all the same. If he ignores evidence to the contrary, well, at least you tried and didn't simply remain silent and enable the behavior.

I really don't get why you're so dead set on thinking you disagree with me. Maybe prejudice against liberals? In the above example I'd do exactly what you're saying. I'd point out that there are plenty of red cars that hadn't done anything to him. Then I'd ask him if he had noticed that all of those red cars that had hit him were driven by blond women!!

Seriously, it's not the car, it's the driver. It's not the race, it's the attitude. But I can tell you that a lot of people I know feel a lot more comfortable in their own skins if people around them use language that's not designed to "put them in their place" or to describe their limitations or their place in the social order.

 

[cheburashka]

Re: Not trying to be PC, actually anti racist

a racial slur is a racial slur doesn't matter who, when, why or how it was said. Just because one is more socially acceptable then the others doesn't make it ok.

If only that were true. Change the story around a bit. You're sitting in a bar shooting the breeze with a couple of friends. A Black acquaintance comes in and asks if you'd like him to put some Wayne Newton on the jukebox for you. You ask him if he has any Kool Menthols you could borrow. He says he'll just leave you three queers alone to have a good time.

My bet is that last statement is going to up the ante considerably. I'd also bet that you know exactly why, and you agree with the rule. Some things simply aren't said, even in jest.

Cracker? Do you even know what that means? It's a reference to the low-class White folks who "cracked corn" to make their own alcohol. It's a jab at class, not race. It's more socially acceptable because it doesn't have a sting to it. It doesn't get my blood boiling like some other words do. There's really no comparison between the two.

 

[gonefishie]

Re: Not trying to be PC, actually anti racist

If it doesn't imply race then how come the term is only used to describe a white person? You don't get offended when being refered to by that term? even though you live nowhere near the deep South and not related to the original crackers.

 

[cheburashka]

Re: Not trying to be PC, actually anti racist

If it doesn't imply race then how come the term is only used to describe a white person? You don't get offended when being refered to by that term? even though you live nowhere near the deep South and not related to the original crackers.

Nope. I don't get offended by it at all. Honkey, cracker, boojoo white trash, ofay, whatever. Doesn't push my buttons.

Like I said--it's class rather than race. I've never known anyone who was middle class or above who was offended by the term "cracker."

 

[puddle jumper]

Re: Not trying to be PC, actually anti racist

Are Americans the only wackos who insist on this whole <insert other country>-American crap? Do people do this in other countries? Are there peopel who call themselves African-Canadians or Icelandic-Swedes or Swazilandic-Brazilians? Where does it end?

From here on out, if anyone refers to me as anything other than a German-Canadian-French-American I will be horribly offended and call you a racist. And there had better be that exact combination as a check box on any forms I fill out or I'm calling the NAAPHP (National Association for the Advancement of Pink Hued People).

In Canada there are racial comments. But your known as a Canadian with select your heritage/race

 

[lowkee]

Re: Not trying to be PC, actually anti racist

If only that were true. Change the story around a bit. You're sitting in a bar shooting the breeze with a couple of friends. A Black acquaintance comes in and asks if you'd like him to put some Wayne Newton on the jukebox for you. You ask him if he has any Kool Menthols you could borrow. He says he'll just leave you three queers alone to have a good time.

Cracker? Do you even know what that means? It's a reference to the low-class White folks who "cracked corn" to make their own alcohol. It's a jab at class, not race. It's more socially acceptable because it doesn't have a sting to it. It doesn't get my blood boiling like some other words do. There's really no comparison between the two.

Wait, how does a derogatory reference to white people not constitute racism? Seems like someone can only see one direction to me. Make remarks about white people, it's okay. Make remarks about any other race, not cool. I don't see how questioning someone about speaking in horribly broken English constitutes racism, when you know darn well they can speak proper English. Somehow this means you deserve a racist insult?

As for the remarks.. I don't get any of them.. maybe I need to hang out with more racists.

 

[ezbtr]

Re: Not trying to be PC, actually anti racist

Nope. I don't get offended by it at all. Honkey, cracker, boojoo white trash, ofay, whatever. Doesn't push my buttons.

Like I said--it's class rather than race. I've never known anyone who was middle class or above who was offended by the term "cracker."

ofay????????? LOL, thats a new one !! (too me)