Peeling paint

[jimmy wise]

how long between coats? you said it was light blue. did you put blue on real dry or primer dry? maybe its delaming between coats. get me a close up i might be able to tell

 

[produceguy]

Thanks for asking jimmy about the recoat time. I'm not sure what is considered a full coat. I sprayed and when it was dry to touch or tacky I hit it again.
Directions say to wait 6 hours between coats.
Very first time I sprayed it, the paint covered hardly anything,is that considered a full coat?
It's a darker blue color.

 

[jimmy wise]

when you applied the primer was it hot? did it spray and make lots of dust? a full coat is shiny when applied. its hard to explain in what 15 minutes i could show you. was the primer thinned with thinner or special reducer

 

[produceguy]

Yes the primer was thined but wasn't shiney. Thinned with sprints.

 

[Woodonglass]

I don't think 2 days with the Tractor paint is gunna be long enuf to keep it from lifting with the tape. I think you'll need to wait a minimum of at least a week or two before you try taping it. I'd also recommend thinning it with a 50/50 mix of acetone and Mineral spirits mix it well and then add the hardener and let it cook for 30 mins stirring every 10 mins.

 

[produceguy]

I don't think 2 days with the Tractor paint is gunna be long enuf to keep it from lifting with the tape. I think you'll need to wait a minimum of at least a week or two before you try taping it. I'd also recommend thinning it with a 50/50 mix of acetone and Mineral spirits mix it well and then add the hardener and let it cook for 30 mins stirring every 10 mins.

I'll give that a shot.
What does the acetone do. Directions say to use mineral sprints.

 

[Woodonglass]

Acetone has a higher "FlashPoint" and will make the paint have a tendency to dry and cure a bit quicker. I used it on my boat with great results. Won't harm the acrylic enamel at all. It's kind of like the MFG's reducers. They have 3. Low. Med, and High temp. This mix would be like a Med. Temp reducer. Straight acetone would be a low temp reducer and Straight Mineral Spirits would be a High Temp reducer. It's all about giving the paint the ability to atomize, flowout, and cure.

 

[produceguy]

Could I sand it out and spray it with a acrylic base. I found a car paint supply store and they said I wouldn't have to reprimer because the akyld primer and base was compatible.
What do you guys think?

 

[zool]

Laying an acrylic over an alkyd is risky at best, especially if the alkyd wasn't catalyzed, but since you used a hardener, you may or may not be ok.

The best and safest way would be to use a sealer as a tie coat, then lay the acrylic. Acrylics adhere really good to epoxy primers, sprayed as a sealer, and epoxy primers adhere well to alkyds, and most other substrates.

If you post the exact VS base you used, and the auto acrylic brand you plan to use, ill have a better idea how compatible they really are....

Regardless of which way you choose to proceed, you should get yourself a good wax/grease remover (surface cleaner), mineral spirits and such tend to just swirl around contaminates. Youll want to wipe before you resand the base, and again after, lay one coat of the primer/sealer (preferably one recommended for the acrylic you plan to use)...then lay 2 coats of the acrylic.

Ask the jobber for a copy of the tech sheets/p-sheets for the acrylic and follow to the letter, it will also tell the tape time, recoat time, and compatible substrates.

 

[produceguy]

Thanks zool, the base I used is,Van sickle tractor, equipment and industrial enamel,an oil based heavy duty alkyd.
The product I am looking at is called OMNI, an MBC acrylic base coat.
I did get the tech sheet and it says it's good to use on cured,cleaned and sanded OEM and refinished enamels,not sure what OEM and a refinished enamel is thou.
I was trying to get away from having to prime again and just spray this over what I have after i prep it.

 

[jimmy wise]

are you going to spray clear over the base coat? thats dancing with the devil. tractor paint may wrinkle. before you buy omni which is ok we need to decide is the paint delaming before we move on. stick duct tape on the blue and rub it in good and yank it off. do it on several areas. if you primer really dry coats it can pull apart. did it peel between blue coats? did it smell of solvent? i know there are alot of paint suggestions on the forum. im not saying they are wrong at all. but before you move forward we need to minimise any further problems. id hate for you to put more money on your project and waste all the time of masking to have it peel again

 

[produceguy]

I'll try the duck tape tomorrow. No it didn't smell of solvents. As far as I can tell,the paint just peeled off completely to the primer with the tape.
If the paint does peel back with the duck tape, what is the next step?

 

[zool]

Omni is PPG's value line, but the MBC requires a clear coat, which you dont really want on boat. The Omni line is ok, but you should go with OMNI single stage acrylic urethane, instead of the base. Is kinda thin compared to their concept line, but way more affordable....you my get some bleed thru from the flames with either the mbc and clear, maybe less with the SS, its thicker..a seal coat would solve that...OMNI has a few sealers, and a surface cleaner In their system.

the older OEM enamels were acrylic enamels, not sure how it will lay over the tractor alkyd..but I suppose you could try it...

 

[produceguy]

Omni is PPG's value line, but the MBC requires a clear coat, which you dont really want on boat. The Omni line is ok, but you should go with OMNI single stage acrylic urethane, instead of the base. Is kinda thin compared to their concept line, but way more affordable....you my get some bleed thru from the flames with either the mbc and clear, maybe less with the SS, its thicker..a seal coat would solve that...OMNI has a few sealers, and a surface cleaner In











their system.

the older OEM enamels were acrylic enamels, not sure how it will lay over the tractor alkyd..but I suppose you could try it...

The lady gave me a free sample of the stuff with a little thinner.
Will I be able to tell right away if it's not compatible?
I'm probably driving you guys nuts but I do appreciate the help.

 

[zool]

Yes, it will wrinkle or lift after it cures, try some in a small area....then try some tape and see if it pulls......did she give you some clear?....because the MBC wont hold up without it....it should say it right in the tech sheet that it requires a clear....and she should know that.

and youre not driving me nuts, I luv watching ppl paint things ....and am more than happy to help if I can...

http://webpages.charter.net/mikesmonte/paint_mbc-3.pdf

(top left corner)

 

[produceguy]

Thanks zool, I didn't catch that. No i didn't get any clear.
I was favoring the base coat clear coat because she said it is more forgiving if I get a run or something, that I could just sand it out and re spray.
Why no clear coat on a boat?

 

[jc55]

No Title

You are a very talented, produceguy. Listen to Zool. :hail:He helped me paint my boat and it came out superb and has no flaws after a season out on the water.

 

[produceguy]

No paint peeled off with the duct tape. I think WOG is correct on the paint wasn't ready for the tape.

 

[Woodonglass]

I've shot a lot of Acrylic Enamel/Alkyd paint. It takes a while for it to fully cure and for you to be able to tape it off. And then when you do you gotta be quick in removing the tape unless the paint has cured for months. At least that's been my experience with it. Others may differ. I AM just an OLD Dumb Okie that learned his paintin skills from a rag sniffin painter back in the 60's that could shoot paint better when he was high on lacquer thinner than he could when he was sober!!! :lol: I've prolly forgot more than I learned!!!!:facepalm: I don't know to much about all these fancy smanzy new fangled paints but I know Zool and Jimmy Wise do!!!!

 

[zool]

Thanks zool, I didn't catch that. No i didn't get any clear.
I was favoring the base coat clear coat because she said it is more forgiving if I get a run or something, that I could just sand it out and re spray.
Why no clear coat on a boat?

The short of it is, auto clears don't hold up well in the marine environment, especially on the topsides. You will notice that most boat specific paints don't offer a clear, and most are polyester based. Poly paints are the most durable, with linear polys being the top, but they lack repairability, and shouldn't be cut, buffed, or waxed. Awlgrip and Sterling do offer a clear, but its rarely used on boats.

Auto base/clears offer repairability and such, but they are the least durable in the marine environment, and if they are used, its mostly on the hull sides from the rubrail to water line, over graphics.

Acrylic urethanes fill the void, they are almost as durable as LPU's, and are more easily repaired than base/clears. Most boat rashes, gouges, ect will cut thru the clear and the base, requiring repair of both layers, where AU's can just be sanded smooth, and touched up, they can also be cut, buffed, compounded so any runs, drapes, or other boo boos are easily repaired...you can also wet sand between coats if ur getting peel. Also, Acrylics in single stage look the most like factory gel.

They started to be used by boat techs so much, that Awlgrip released their own version of an AU, Awlcraft 2000.

The main advantage that the Polys have over the acrylics is they offer a brushing thinner, for roll and tip, which is popular in the DIY community, acrylics are basically spray only.

We see a lot of base boats dragged in here with peeling and crazing clears, that were added as a bandaid, to cover faded gel....they last about a year or two.