Plane question

AFishin69

Petty Officer 2nd Class
Joined
Jun 4, 2003
Messages
147
I been looking through pages of questions about Dol-Fins and Stingray fins etc.. So I just wanted to explain my problem, not really problem but I was a little concerned after my first fishing trip and see what you guys think. I have a 18ft 86 Chris Craft Bow Rider that I have converted the I/O to and O/B by building a jack plate with aluminunum. Anyway I have a 1990 Johnson 140 Log Shaft 25" on it. I have the motor raise to where the cativation plate is just below the bottom of the hull the way it is supposed to. So here is my question. There were 3 of this weekend that eneterd a local tournamet. I have a 2 12 gal tanks on board for my motor. My problem that with all 3 of on board sitting in the boat and full of fuel the motor would not pull us out of the hole and the nose shot skyward. So I moved my two buddies to the bow she ended up getting on the plane. Now second problem once on the plane I have to keep the motor trimmed almost all the way in and can only back off on the throttle a little bit to keep her smooth and consitant on the plane. The third problem is this burns gas like a (edit)I am thinking about installing a fin on the cativation plate. My question is will that allow me to run on plane on less throttle and slower speeds so I can last a little longer on my two tanks. As you know a 140 can burn 6gal an hour WOT or close to it I would guess I am running once on plane around 4000 rpm!! Let me know if that will work.
 

KCLOST

Commander
Joined
Jun 22, 2002
Messages
2,095
Re: Plane question

Interesting post in the repair forum on gus usage... Your engine will burn approx. 14gph at WOT not 6gph. However it drops usage dramatically at lower speeds..<br /><br />A fin will help you getting on plane, and also keeping on plane at lower speeds. How much? I can't tell you exactly with your set-up... <br /><br />It's worth a shot. It's not going to hurt anything to put it on and if it doesn't work it won't hurt to take it off... But It should make a big difference for you.
 

LubeDude

Admiral
Joined
Oct 8, 2003
Messages
6,945
Re: Plane question

I believe that your # 1 problem is that you do not have enough trim under angle (for lack of correct description), on you aplication. I dont think you are able to tuck you engine under enough for a good holeshot. You are going to have to put wedges either on your engine or your transome brackets. This is a common problem that people make when putting an outboard on a boat that was originally an I/O. Also you are going to have to drop your pitch on your prop by a bunch, at least four or five pitches. Your cavitation plate should be 1" ABOVE the bottom of the hull or even more depending on the application.
 
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DJ

Guest
Re: Plane question

I agree that the cavitation plate should be ABOVE the bottom of the boat. Even more than 1" for a bracketed outboard.<br /><br />Get the outboard up and see what happens. Once you do that, you can start looking at re-propping.
 

Dead Eye

Petty Officer 1st Class
Joined
Jan 21, 2004
Messages
259
Re: Plane question

I put doel-fins on my 1988 150 blk max. I get on plane quicker and stay on plane at slower speeds, Boat is 18ft cc wellcraft.<br /> Dead Eye
 

Dhadley

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Feb 4, 2001
Messages
16,978
Re: Plane question

If youre still using the transome angle of the I/O it does not have enough negative angle for the OB. Use wedges to increase your negative. Youll still have pleanty of positive trim angle.
 

Jdeagro

iboats.com Partner
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Jul 30, 2003
Messages
1,682
Re: Plane question

I am not going to be Mr. Popularity here, but I just can't keep quite.<br /><br />I do not disagree with any of the answers, as they all will make a diference. <br /><br />The transon wedge will allow you to tilt the motor further under so that the prop can push up on the stern. This will require removing the motor, installing the wedge, and remounting the motor.<br /><br />The raising the motor on the Jack plate to at least one inch above the bottom of the hull, will move the forward thrust angle closer to the center of the boat (as Dale will tell you the "X" demension). This is most likely one of the best things you can do and should not require too much work, unless there is no more adjustment on the bracket.<br /><br />Changing props should not be done until the boat is set up correctly, since the lower pitch could end up costing fuel econ.<br /><br />Adding a hydrofoil is a bandaid that will help get the boat on plane a bit easier, but can cause handling issues especially if the motor is too low, and the foil is under water.<br /><br />I think you need to raise the motor, run the boat and determine if the WOT RPMs are in range for the motor. If so, add Smart Tabs for the best overall performance including getting on plane with little or no effort.<br /><br />Using the prop to correct set up issues is not my cup of tea. Transom wedges simply help you use the prop to lift the stern. Props are for propelling. They can be used for lifting and commonly are, but it is a comprimise in performance, and efficiency.<br /><br />Now, let me duck out of the way because here comes the flack.
 
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DJ

Guest
Re: Plane question

naughtijohn,<br /><br />And we disagree about what?<br /><br />I mentioned "looking" at repropping.<br /><br />It's obvious to me that his engine is set way to deep. He does have an angle problem too-no doubt.<br /><br />Once he gets that stuff done, he's a perfect candidate for Smart Tabs. :D
 

Jdeagro

iboats.com Partner
Joined
Jul 30, 2003
Messages
1,682
Re: Plane question

Hi Dale;<br /><br />Did not mean You! How have you been? Hope to talk to you soon.
 

quantumleap

Master Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Feb 16, 2004
Messages
813
Re: Plane question

nautiJohn- I will disagree with you on this one. By converting a boat from an I/O to outboard, the boat needs to be re-configured properly by correcting the transom angle as Lube Dude suggests. Correct prop-pitch must also come first. Putting tabs on first to compensate for these problems would be using your product as a band-aid, no different than a foil as you suggest. Trim tabs are a great asset to many boats, but your theory that props and factory cavitation plates aren't designed to plane a boat is going a little overboard in your effort to market your product. If your mindset was correct, every boat made would come from the factory with tabs. Which for you, would not be a bad thing!(although I'm sure the boat builders could probably produce their own)<br /> <br /> Don't take offense to my comments, as I have no problem with you being a company representative trying to promote your product here, if it helps someone correct their problem. But, I personally don't feel that trim tabs are the cure-all for every handling and planing issue. Sometimes they can just make the problem less noticable without really correcting the cause of the handling issue. <br /><br />Boats and outboard motors have been following the same basic design for what, 80 years or so?? I think the boat and engine manufacturers have a pretty good knowlege of what it takes to get a boat on plane, and if the addition of tabs to the back was the best and easiest solution, they would be incorporated into every new boat made. I'm not saying that they aren't a good idea for some applications but they don't overide getting the boat and motor set up properly first. They are an aftermarket, performance enhancing product for most small craft, but should not be used in place of correct transom angle, motor position, and prop pitch. I would hate to see this guy lugging his engine by having the wrong set-up just because he added tabs to solve his problem of planing quicker.
 

Dave Abrahamson

Lieutenant
Joined
May 8, 2003
Messages
1,497
Re: Plane question

Originally posted by Quantumleap:<br /> <br />Boats and outboard motors have been following the same basic design for what, 80 years or so?? I think the boat and engine manufacturers have a pretty good knowlege of what it takes to get a boat on plane, and if the addition of tabs to the back was the best and easiest solution, they would be incorporated into every new boat made.
Ditto Quantum, I've often thought that myself.
 

Jdeagro

iboats.com Partner
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Jul 30, 2003
Messages
1,682
Re: Plane question

I knew I would get some flack!<br /><br />Please understand that I am not saying that this fellow doesn't need to set the boat up correctly. However, the most common cure-all for performance issues with boats under 22 feet has been to burden the propulsion system with additional tasks. <br /><br />Let me throw out a few things regarding why Manufacturers don't put trim tabs on smaller boats. <br /><br />Let's first look at what trim tabs do! They are simply an extension of the hull that can be adjusted. The adjustment allows the hull design and shape to change in concert with the changing conditions - such as speed, load, balance, water conditions and currents. <br /><br />If you look at larger boats (28 ft and up) nearly all of them have trim tabs. Why? Certainly not because of a bad hull design. Reasons:<br />1) The power to weight ration for a 30 ft boat is about half that of a typical 19 ft open bow. Getting the boat up may be a problem, if not impossible without tabs.<br />2) The weight and draft of the typical 30 ft boat precludes it from violent reaction if the tabs are misused (i.e.: putting one up and one down by mistake when cruising). The boat will list badly, and turn into the direction of the deployed tabs but it will not become a catastrophic event.<br />3) longer boats are generally wider, and port to starboard attitude is harder to control. Shifting weight is not effective. <br /><br />Here is something to think about -<br />Why then are tabs not used on smaller boats?<br />1) Power to weight ratio is high enough to make the boat plane without tabs,<br />2) Traditionally (Hydraulic tabs) the cost relationship has been too high. $500 to $700 on a $18,000. boat is high, but on a $50,000 boat it is less significant.<br />3) Just about every design engineer with every boat manufacturer I have talked to admits to this next statement. <br />Helm controlled trim tabs on small, light, fast boats are a liability issue. Drop one trim tab as little as 1 inch at 40 MPH, and you have a potential catastrophe. The liability to the boat manufacturer is enormous. <br />4) The use of these smaller boats is far different. They are not "Destination" boat like the larger crafts. They are sport boats. They seldom run in the same direction for an hour like the larger cousins, it is more like minutes. Each change indirection would likely dictate a change in tab adjustment depending on wind and seas. The operator also has much more to deal with such as pulling skiers. In any event helm controlled tabs are generally not appropriate for these boats.<br />5) Boat design is an issue that has developed over the years.<br />In the early days boat manufacturers designed boat differently, with flatter bottoms (planed easier than the v hulls), moved the steering forward of mid-ship for balance. They were not as fast, pounded more in heavy seas, afforded less usable space.<br /><br />Today we have bigger heavier engines, Deep V hull designs, and different cockpit configurations. The boat balance has given way to style and enhancements.<br /><br />Safety first!<br />The manufactures choose to add "trim" to the motors in order to use the prop to help the stern heavy boat get on plane because it is safe. This then focuses the total performance of the boat on the engine and the prop. <br /><br />The anti-ventalation plate is to create similar density (water pressure) for the prop at or near water surface as it has on the bottom. <br /><br />Afishin69 needs to get his set up correct, but with the Smart Tabs his dependency on the prop for getting on plane, eliminating porpoising, etc. will be far less, and he then can choose a prop that provides the very best performance and economy.<br /><br />Don't kid yourself, the reason manufacturers are not installing trim tabs on small boats is due to cost, and safety. The ones that have tested Smart Tabs are using them to either appease disgruntled consumers, or actually rigging the boats with them. <br /><br />Every user report and post on the performance enhancements, and handling improvement on Smart Tabs has been positive. <br /><br />By the way, 80 years ago we had a horse and buggy with flat leaf springs for suspension. Today we have the horseless carriage with McPherson struts. <br /><br />Thanks to everyone who takes the time to read, respond, and tolerate my opinions. We don't need to agree!
 

LubeDude

Admiral
Joined
Oct 8, 2003
Messages
6,945
Re: Plane question

I dont think john is saying not to set the boat up better first. I do know that my engine doesnt have to be tucked under as much now when I take off, actually my holeshot is better if I dont.<br /><br />After seeing what they did for my Bass Boat, I think that there isnt a boat made under 20 ' that wouldnt bennifit from Smart Tabs in one way or another, I will never have a boat without them again.
 

Sivart

Petty Officer 2nd Class
Joined
Jul 1, 2003
Messages
105
Re: Plane question

Smart tabs sure helped my boat out. From getting on plane to turning to stopping. They made my boat much easier to handle. The only thing that worried me about the tabs was maybe bending them while I was fishing in shallow stumpy water. I never did though.
 

quantumleap

Master Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Feb 16, 2004
Messages
813
Re: Plane question

I have read and believe in all the claims and support for tabs, so everyone with tabs doesn't need to reaffirm their satisfaction for tabs on this post. Re-read my post carefully and I think you can comprehend my point that nautiJohn is DISCOURAGING him from using wedges to correct the transom angle, and that he would install tabs BEFORE correcting the prop pitch. I disagree in using tabs to shortcut the proper reconfiguation of a boat using a different size/type of motor. I believe tabs are a performance enhancing product much like a hydrofoil. Sometimes a foil is the right answer, sometimes tabs are the right answer. But the craft should always be setup to perform safely and efficiently first. If it can't run decent without tabs or a foil, then something is wrong with the boat/engine combo.
 

AFishin69

Petty Officer 2nd Class
Joined
Jun 4, 2003
Messages
147
Re: Plane question

Thank you all for your responses. It is an interesting set up. My question is if I add a fin, is it supposed to run in the water with the cativation plate to create the addintional lift. Or is it supposed to come out with the plate once we reach a ceartin speed. Again I will attempet to raise the motor up a notch to see if that can create a better angle for thrust. I will let you know what happens. I am going to borrow my buddies fin and see what results are going to happen.
 

Dave Abrahamson

Lieutenant
Joined
May 8, 2003
Messages
1,497
Re: Plane question

I don't think the fin is designed to run in/under the water once on plane.(That's where tabs work better;))I believe the fin, like the cavitation plate, should be out of the water once on plane and at speed.
 

LubeDude

Admiral
Joined
Oct 8, 2003
Messages
6,945
Re: Plane question

Correct Dave, but even the fin will mot raise the stern enough if the angle of the engine isnt correct. The bow is still going to go up.<br /><br />Afishing69: Why dont you follow the advice of several an change the negative angle of your engine, Thats the first thing you need to address.
 

Jdeagro

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1,682
Re: Plane question

Afishing69;<br /><br />If you are not going to use Smart Tabs, then move forward with the transom wedge, and Prop change and motor height, and hydrofoil.<br /><br />If you deside to try the Smart Tabs, it will be best to hold off on the prop purchase until you determine the new WOT RPM's. The RPS will go up with Smart Tabs. Assuming you have the Tabs Adjusted correctly.
 

AFishin69

Petty Officer 2nd Class
Joined
Jun 4, 2003
Messages
147
Re: Plane question

Okay that sounds good. Should I measure the cativation plate height to the relative realtion from the bottom of the hull with the motor tilted max out or parrallel to the ground? It is now with the cativation plate horizontal to my drive about 1" above the keel...so you guy think I should raise it more right??
 
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