PTT Failure

[ken52]

I'm working on my 1999 S150TXRX PTT not working problem. I screwed in the pressure release bolt on the port side of motor and when I use either the control PTT or motor PTT I just get a clicking sound. So I'm thinking solenoid or relay.

On port side of motor there are 3 assemblies with electrical connectors on them which I believe are relays, the top two seem to be related to the PTT and the bottom one appears to be a starter relay, is this correct?

Using a Yamaha service manual I should be getting continuity from:

Lt Grn to Blk I'm getting no continuity
Sky Blu to #1 post I'm getting no continuity
Lt Grn to #1 post I'm getting no continuity

Every other part of the testing procedure when I'm suppose to get continuity or not are good.

So I'm assuming the relay is bad, is that correct?


My last question is if I am correct so far do I replace the top two relays together or just the top relay?

 

[rodbolt]

Re: PTT Failure

double check the relay ground. its odd to lose both relays at the same time.
the relays default to ground when not activated.
remove the 10Ga blue and green wires.
using a digital multimeter attach the red lead to the 10Ga blue terminal and the black lead to the 10Ga green terminal.
activate the trim up, you should see 12V,activate trim down and it will display -12V.
touch the blue to the relay positive terminal and the green to engine ground and it should trim up. reverse the leads to go down
skyblue and light green are control circuits and should have continuity to ground from the terminal through the relay activate wire to ground.

 

[ken52]

Re: PTT Failure

Thanks RB, will do that procudure next. Unfortunatly it's raining today so I'm on hold for the weather.

When I did my testing the first part in the service manual has you checking continuity between Sb and B and Lg and B. I had to disconnect the Sb & Lg, and from the pic in the manual it looks like the B(assuming this is ground) is disconnected. Is that correct?

Same thing with the second part of the procedure, I disconnected all the wires from the top relay for the testing. Is that the correct way too?

What is the difference between the top two relays?

Thanks again for assistance.

 

[rodbolt]

Re: PTT Failure

only difference between the up and down relay is the the control wire color and the paint mark for blue or green.

 

[ken52]

Re: PTT Failure

Thanks RB, didn't know they used a seperate relay for each function. Still on weather hold but will keep advised on progress.

 

[ken52]

Re: PTT Failure

RB, I just performed the test you said.

Removed the 10G Blue & Green, red meter lead to blue & black meter lead to green. No 12V when up or down on trim.

Blue to positive and green to engine ground and nothing.

There are two fuses on port side and both both tested good.

Now where do I check?

 

[rodbolt]

Re: PTT Failure

no fuses for the trim motor.
check the red jumper from the start relay to the tilt relays then double check the ground for the tilt relays.

 

[ken52]

Re: PTT Failure

OK, this is what I have. Starting at starter relay red positive I have 12V. and on both trim relays red positive I have 12V too.

On both trim relays when I meter from the black ground post to engine ground I have continuity, and are clean and secure.

Correction on previous thread:When I tested trim relays I had wires removed from relays which I believe was incorrect testing procedure. With all wires connected and the Sky Blue & Lt Green wires unplugged for testing I got continuity when I should and not when I should. So I believe the relays are good.

If this is correct the fault now lies in the PTT motor?

When I do a voltage check on both trim relays I metered from Red Post to Blue Post on top relay and Red Post to Green Post on bottom relay and the is 12V there. Is that normal?

 

[99yam40]

Re: PTT Failure

"When I do a voltage check on both trim relays I metered from Red Post to Blue Post on top relay and Red Post to Green Post on bottom relay and the is 12V there. Is that normal?"


If I understand you correctly, it would be normal.
Looking at a wiring diagram,the red post has 12+ on it all the time and the green and blue terminals going to the trim motor have a path to ground both through the relays and through the motor when all wires are hooked up.
If you disconnect the blue and green wires that go to the motor, you will be testing the ground path that is in the relay contacts and not through the motor when you test the way you are doing. This makes sure the relays contacts make conection to ground when de-energized.
To test motor touch the blue to the relay positive terminal and the green to engine ground and it should trim up. reverse the leads to go down.

This is the same thing Rodbolt said with a little more explanation. hope it helps

 

[ken52]

Re: PTT Failure

Thanks 99Yam40, it appears then my relays are good. When I put 12v positive on the blue wire and ground to the green wire nothing happens. So if I have no broken wires to the motor I have to assume my motor has to be bad?

 

[rodbolt]

Re: PTT Failure

your is motor is bad.
to test the relays place the red meter lead on the blue relay terminal and your black lead on the green relay terminal.
toggle trim up,should have 12V,toggle trim down and you should have -12v. results may be backwards depending on the meter polarity.
at rest both blue and green terminals have ground potential. when toggled up the contact disc moves and connects the red and blue terminals and current flows through the up relay down the blue motor wire,through the commutator and brush set out the green trim motor wire,through the grounded green terminal of the down relay,through the black relay ground,through the engine block and then the - batt cable back to the battery.
reverse this if your electrical training was military.
to test relay grounds simply check,with motor wires dissconected, from the blue then the green relay terminal to engine ground, should see less than 1 ohm.
there is a thermal overload switch in the tilt motor that can fail.
with motor wires dissconected test continuity between the green and blue wires, should see less than 5 ohms.

 

[ken52]

Re: PTT Failure

Thanks RB, as soon as it warms up some ( 39 this morning) I will test the thermal overload switch too.

 

[ken52]

Re: PTT Failure

To test the relays place the red meter lead on the blue relay terminal and your black lead on the green relay terminal. Toggle trim up,should have 12V,toggle trim down and you should have -12v. results may be backwards depending on the meter polarity.

My results showed no voltage, what does this indicate?

to test relay grounds simply check,with motor wires dissconected, from the blue then the green relay terminal to engine ground, should see less than 1 ohm.

With meter set on 200 ohm scale I got .9 ohms from both relays.

there is a thermal overload switch in the tilt motor that can fail. with motor wires dissconected test continuity between the green and blue wires, should see less than 5 ohms.

With meter set on 200 ohm scale I got 1 ohm.

Just got my son to help me lift the motor up onto the maintenance brackets. From the looks the previous owner didn't use any supports while trailering boat and it's a little banged up and one of the bolt hole ears are broken too.

So I believe it's time to take the motor off and appart. Again thanks for your patients on this.

 

[rodbolt]

Re: PTT Failure

dunno

with a no voltage reading when the meter leads are on the terminals of the relay I would quit testing the motor and find the relay issue.
YOU MUST remember.
the sky blue and light green terminals are motor CONTROL wires.
have nothing to do with can the motor run.
now your symtoms changed again.
dont confuse the blue and green motor wires with the blue and green control wires.
stop where your at and PM me . I am gonna be off after wednesday, have the motor,your meter and a phone handy.
its quicker then typing.

 

[99yam40]

Re: PTT Failure

Sounds like multiple problems if your testing is correct. there should be 12V at the relay out puts when you energize them and the motor should run if you put 12 V on the wires to it, if there is continuity through the motor.
Hopefully Rodbolt can get you going in the right direction.

 

[ken52]

Re: PTT Failure

Thanks 99, I sent RB a pm. I may be explaining my results incorrect too. I do have 12V across both relays without using trim switch from blue post to red post and green post to red post.

After re-reading all this over again from the beginning I realized what RB was telling me to do but I did it wrong(my dumbass). When RB told be to disconnect the 12g blue & 12g green wire then connect the meter leads to the red & green terminals I connected to the terminals of the motor wires I just disconnected. When I connect the meter to the blue & green terminals of the relays and energizes the trim switch I get a +12v and a -12v. I didn't understand until now what he wanted me to check with that procedure, my fault!

So again I guess I'm down to a bad motor because when I put 12v across the motor leads nothing happens.

 

[99yam40]

Re: PTT Failure

Yea, that sounds like a bad motor.
Good to here you figured out the testing on the relays and they are good

 

[ken52]

Re: PTT Failure

I really feel stupid over this one. Should have realized that disconnecting the motor wires issolated the motor from everything else.

 

[ken52]

Re: PTT Failure-Found Problem and More

Re: PTT Failure-Found Problem and More

Here's what I found:

Water intrusion into motor. Everything rusted and burnt looking.

Now the bad news: On removing motor two bolts sheared off at the base of the gear pump assy. Looks like anti-sieze wasn't used on assembly. So looks like I have to pull the whole PTT assy off just to get at the gear pump. Doubt it would be easy to drill out the stainless bolts to try to easy out or retap holes.

So now what to do? Do I replace just the motor and gear pump assy or am I gonna be at almost the cost of replacing the whole unit?

 

[rodbolt]

Re: PTT Failure

now the fun begins.
its also why I use a lot of oxygen and acetylyne.
while the bolts are stainless they are a cheap grade and drill very easily.
use a good quaility center pion or bullit point staye drill and drill them and retap them.
offhand I cannot remember the thread size but I do know tap drills are avalible.
some folks use a smaller drill then finish with the tap drill size,

I simply prep the bolt end so its as square as possible,use a good qualty bit with some cutting oil and the correct size drill bit for either the tap size or the heli-coil tap size.
break a smaller bitt off in the hole and you will have issues.
its also why I use the bullit point style bits.
they dont tend to walk and cut an almost flat hole.
drawback is the like to lock up when they break through the bottom.