Russia

plywoody

Senior Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Aug 11, 2002
Messages
685
Re: Russia

Thanks for the support, DJohns, but actually I welcome those kind of comments. It simply illustrates the lack of depth of the counter arguments. I hear from many sources that any sort of opposition to the current policy is approaching treason, and I find it somewhat amusing, if not disturbing.<br /><br />And yes, Kiwi, I have heard those same reports of the woman being hung for waving at the US troops. I have no doubt it could be true. I am not sure what kind of importance to place on it, as it is not surprising that a repressive dictarorial regime resorts to those sorts of tactics when their homeland is invaded.<br /><br />That is, of course, how repressive dictarorial regimes retain power, by instilling fear. There are lots of these regimes in the world, and I would hazard a guess that there are few of them that welcome open dissent in the populace. We can see from NOSLEEP'S comments about me that it is a pretty standard reaction around the world, even in supposedly free countries.<br /><br />What really concerns me, as I have said before, is not that Saddam is not a bad guy- he of course is- or not that he should not be removed--I will not shed any tears when he is gone--but rather the ramifications on American security and safety from this action.<br /><br />We are seeing, among other disturbing images, of massive protests happening in Pakistan for example, that threatens the stability of the Pakistani government. The Pakistanis don't fear Saddam. Now the Pakistani government has been instrumental in helping us round up Alqaida terrorists, and I will be very surprised if they continue with any urgency this task now. Their government in supporting Americans will be on pretty shaky ground.<br /><br />And the media reports around the world are not very flattering to Americans. Or very helpful in estabishing safety and security of Americans in the world. Now I know you can argue that those media reports are biased, and no doubt they are, but they are all biased on both sides.<br /><br />Whether you show a photo of American Marines with big guns and bigger flags, as Fox News likes to do, or you show photos of dead babies, as a good share of the rest of the world sees, they are both an integral part of war, and both "true". It is simply a matter of perception.<br /><br />I have no idea what will happen after this war is over. I have no idea what the reaction will be of the Iraqi people once Saddam and his regime is removed, as it no doubt will be. Perhaps it will depend on our actions after the war, which is far more important than the war itself. In this area, we have a less than stellar record, and I hope that changes. I don't have a good feeling about that, but time will tell.<br /><br />I think it is reasonably clear from the progress of the war that while the resistance to the invasion by the Iraqis is pretty fierce, the evidence so far suggests that even if Saddam did have WMD, he had no way to deliver those weapons outside his borders. The fact there has been no Iraqi air resistance, nor has there been any missle strikes against Israel, and just a few largely ineffective lobs at Kuwait, suggests to me that the "threat" Saddam posed to his neighbors was minimal.<br /><br />So, when all is said and done, to paraphrase Reagan, "are we safer now, or before?" We'll see, I suppose, but my guess is we were much safer before.<br /><br />And there has to be a better way, with all of our technology and wealth, to win the hearts and minds of foreign peoples and countries than with bombs. It may take a bit longer, but it is worth the effort. I am not necessarily a pacifist at all. There are times when force is definitely necessary. I just don't believe that this was one of them.<br /><br />And the idea that we should impose our values on the rest of the world by force is a chilling concept.<br /><br />And out of curiousity, just exactly what do we do if China decides it feels a threat from Taiwan and decides to invade them? They would, after all, just be following our lead.
 

NOSLEEP

Commander
Joined
Oct 30, 2002
Messages
2,442
Re: Russia

It is plain you do not understand the consequences<br />of your thoughts and beliefs. You and your fellow<br />do nothings contribute greatly to the strength<br />of the Iraq regime as you try your very best to<br />undermine the actions of your own government and <br />empower others to support the right of a brutal<br />dictator to be left unchallenged. You lesson<br />diplomacy with cowardice,as your fellow Americans<br />put their lives on the line to protect your sorry<br />excuse for Freedom of expression. If the world<br />had of not discounted its responsibility to <br />disarm Iraq and withheld their own selfish reasons<br />Your fellow Americans and their Friends would of<br />had a better chance to disarm Iraq peacefully.<br />Instead we get so called Americans against Bush<br />and a further threat to your own people who <br />defend what you do not deserve. <br /><br />He who knows not, and knows not he knows not, Is a fool , Shun him.<br />He who knows not, and knows he knows not, is simple, Teach him.<br />He who knows, and knows not he knows,is asleep, Waken him.<br />He who knows, and knows he knows ,is wise, Follow him.<br /><br />You have nothing on President Bush, Follow him.
 

12Footer

Fleet Admiral
Joined
Mar 25, 2001
Messages
8,217
Re: Russia

I'll ditto that, NOSLEEP!<br /><br />Like it or no, there are 'sides' now. Us and them.I am with the "US" troop here, and allways will be. To victory or death.
 

mellowyellow

Vice Admiral
Joined
Jun 8, 2002
Messages
5,327
Re: Russia

great post NOSLEEP!<br />longview, totally disagree, but it's cool. if'n we <br />all thought alike, the world would be a boring <br />place. <br />60% of Iraqi's rely on gov't food to survive while<br />Sadaam sits on solid gold toilets? <br />they pump 40 million gal. of oil a day!<br />his own people would string his crazy a$$ if'n<br />they had the chance...<br />kinda like you know your niehbor is beating the<br />crap outa his wife and kids and you don't stop<br />him, you call the cops (UN) and this is the 2nd<br />or 3rd time it's happened.<br />my .02,<br />M.Y.
 

KennyKenCan

Commander
Joined
Aug 26, 2002
Messages
2,501
Re: Russia

Perfect NOSLEEP, could not agree more.<br /><br />Is it not unbelievable that everyone forgets where Iraq gets its humanitarian aid from... THE U.S.A. , thats where.<br /><br />Another thing nobody remembers, when was the last time the US got oil from Iraq... 1987 , 16 years ago, after Sodamn Insane used chemical weapons against his own people . France, Germany, Russia and Belgium all signed new oil deals, namely WEAPONS FOR OIL , but that was the humane thing to do!<br /><br />75% of the oil pumped out of Iraq goes to France, 20% to the Russians, and the remaining 5% to whoever they were able to sell it to, namly Germany and Belgium.<br /><br />No wonder these countries stuck together, they were worried about THEMSELVES and the ILLEGAL ACTIVITIES THEY WERE UP TO , with no regard for anything else.<br /><br />That is why they supply Iraq with weapons, to protect their own intrests, even if it means supplying a sadistical dictator with anything they want in defiance of the UN sanctions that France, Germany, Belgium, Russia and China signed .<br /><br />I sure do wish the RED DIAPER DOPER BABIES would read the facts instead of making up bullcrap to support their halveassed idiological trumped up ideas!
 

62_Kiwi

Lieutenant Junior Grade
Joined
Jan 20, 2002
Messages
1,159
Re: Russia

Plywoody<br /><br />You posed the question - are we safer now or before ? Well that depends on how far back you want to go.<br /><br />I'd say we were all much safer back in the cold war period, when the enemy was visible and was just as afraid of getting nuked as was everybody else. We stopped being so safe when the Terrorism war started - and 9/11 was the declaration of war from the other side - even if in fact they had started fighting long before.<br /><br />It's hard to say what the effect of the Iraqi war has done to everybody's safety - but for me, it's the right thing to be fighting back rather than just being politically correct and taking it. :mad: <br /><br />Mellowyellow put it well. If my neighbour was beating the crap out of his wife and children - (and to cap if off - threatening me with all sorts of horrible weapons) I'd sure as hell do something about it. Why would the situation be any less compelling on the international stage ? <br /><br />You worry about what the rest of the world will think about Americans.... Well in my opinion the world respects winners and disrespects losers. It's a sad fact. Vietnam did a ton of damage to America's public credibility because it didn't win - not because of any other reason. It lost that war only because so many people didn't support their troops and followed the fashionable ant-war fad. That is what generated so much anti-americanism at the time. I'm sorry to say that and mean no disrespect to the heroic troops that served their countries well at Vietnam.<br /><br />This time around, Saddam will be beaten, Iraq will be liberated and this war will be remembered as a necessary one.
 

FLATHEAD

Captain
Joined
Dec 29, 2002
Messages
3,685
Re: Russia

Here are 10 things to consider when voicing an opinion on this important <br />issue: <br /> <br />1) Between President Bush and Saddam Hussein ... Hussein is the bad guy. <br /> <br />2) If you have faith in the United Nations to do the right thing keep this <br />in mind, they have Libya heading the Committee on Human Rights and IRAQ <br />heading the Global Disarmament Committee. Do your own math here. <br /> <br />3) If you use Google Search and type in "French military victories," your <br />reply will be "Did you mean French military defeats?" <br /> <br />4) If your only anti-war slogan is "No war for oil," sue your school <br />district for allowing you to slip through the cracks and robbing you of the <br />education you deserve. <br /> <br />5) Saddam and Bin Laden will not seek United Nations approval before they <br />try to kill us. <br /> <br />6) Despite common belief, Martin Sheen is not the president -- he plays one <br />on TV. <br /> <br />7) Even if you are anti-war, you are still an "Infidel!" and Bin Laden <br />wants you dead, too. <br /> <br />8) If you believe in a "vast right-wing conspiracy" but not in the danger <br />that Hussein poses, quit hanging out with the Dell computer dude. <br /> <br />9)Yes people die in war.<br /> <br />10) Whether you are for military action or against it, our young men and <br />women overseas are fighting for us to defend our right to speak out. we all <br />need to support them without reservation. <br /> <br />I hope this helps. <br /><br />------------<br />Flathead
 

plywoody

Senior Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Aug 11, 2002
Messages
685
Re: Russia

Like I said, the counter arguments are weak and emotional.<br /><br />There are a ton of repressive dictators out there, and I am sure there are a bunch that harbor terrorists. Do we plan to take them all down? Why is Saddam so special?<br /><br />CBS's Sixty minutes showed the hopeful leader in waiting. Some Ayatollah Al something or other, a Shiite cleric living in exile in Iran. Wonderful! That will help a lot. How in the world do we possibly suppose we can instill a representative government who cares about civil rights in this part of the world? It is folly to think we can accomplish this, and another Muslim cleric leading a country is hardly going to be better than Saddam, I predict.<br /><br />According to the roadmap published by Cheney and Wolfowitz and Rumsfeld et al in 1992, Iraq is just the start. Syria, Egypt, Iran, are next on the list, as is North Korea. This is called empire building. What brought down every empire prior, from the Romans on down? Overextending, and overreaching.<br /><br />And this was published 9 years prior to 9/11 This has nothing to do with any war on terror.<br /><br />You think taking down Saddam is going to fix all the ills in the world, or even in the mid east? Good luck.
 

CalicoKid

Lieutenant Commander
Joined
May 27, 2002
Messages
1,599
Re: Russia

Plywoody, yours is a voice in the wilderness. Thankyou for your eloquent debate and reason.
 

12Footer

Fleet Admiral
Joined
Mar 25, 2001
Messages
8,217
Re: Russia

Plywoody, you stated;"There are a ton of repressive dictators out there, and I am sure there are a bunch that harbor terrorists. Do we plan to take them all down? Why is Saddam so special?<br />"<br /><br />What would YOU propose? Leave them alone? OK. OK America! Here's the Plan!!!<br /><br />1) The US will apologize to the world for our "interference" in their affairs, past and present. You know: Hitler, Mussolini and the rest of them 'good old boys.' We will never "interfere" again.<br /><br />2) We will withdraw our troops from all over the world, starting with Germany, South Korea and the Philippines. They don't want us there. We would station troops at our borders. No more sneaking through holes in the fence.<br /><br />3) All illegal aliens have 90 days to get their affairs together and leave. We'll give them a free trip home. After 90 days the remainder will be gathered up and deported immediately, regardless of who or where they are. France would welcome them.<br /><br />4) All future visitors will be thoroughly checked and limited to 90 days unless given a special permit. No one from a terrorist nation would be allowed in. If you don't like it there, change it yourself, don't hide here. (Including Cuba) Asylum would not ever be available to anyone. We don't need any more cab drivers.<br /><br />5) No "students" over age 21. The older ones are the bombers. If they don't attend classes, they get a "D" and it's back home baby.<br /><br />6) The US will make a strong effort to become self sufficient energy wise. This will include developing non polluting sources of energy but will require a temporary drilling of oil in the Alaskan wilderness. The caribou will have to cope for a while.<br /><br />7) Offer Saudi Arabia and other oil producing countries $10 a barrel for their oil. If they don't like it, we go someplace else.<br /><br />8) If there is a famine or other natural catastrophe in the world, we will not "interfere." They can pray to Allah or whomever, for seeds, rain, cement or whatever they need. Besides, most of what we give them is stolen or given to the army. The people who need it most get very little, if any anyway.<br /><br />9) Ship the UN Headquarters to an island some place. We don't need the spies and fair weather friends here. Besides, it would make a good homeless shelter or lockup for illegal aliens.<br /><br />10) All Americans must go to charm and beauty school. That way, no one can call us "Ugly Americans" any longer.<br /><br />Now, ain't that a winner of a plan!<br /><br />If you agree, pass it on. If not....well... "If you're not with us, you're with them!" <br /><br />Give it up, Russia! these plants in our websites are as tranparent as your undersea phone cables!!!
 

12Footer

Fleet Admiral
Joined
Mar 25, 2001
Messages
8,217
Re: Russia

Another Plywoody Pearl..."CBS's Sixty minutes showed the hopeful leader in waiting. Some Ayatollah Al something or other, a Shiite cleric living in exile in Iran. Wonderful! That will help a lot. How in the world do we possibly suppose we can instill a representative government who cares about civil rights in this part of the world? It is folly to think we can accomplish this, and another Muslim cleric leading a country is hardly going to be better than Saddam, I predict."<br /><br />We are not there to make Muslims Catholics. We are not about to have our sons and daughters be tortured ,die, or suffer the hell of combat in 100+degree weather in full bio gear, for us to leave them with another Hilter,Sadamn,Stalin. We plan on leaving them with an in-place democracy.<br />What did you think we were going to do? Occupation like Britain did? Like the French did in Nam?<br /><br />Not likely. Could this Iatolla be another sadamn? Not likely, but perhaps.In which case ,his own people,with the help of thier elders (to jog thier memory), will simply smell the fat on the fire and impeach him.<br />Democracies work like that. Dictorships do not.<br />Where do you guys get this stuff? Is there a central source?<br />I'd like to check it out, if there is. It might be very entertaining.
 

12Footer

Fleet Admiral
Joined
Mar 25, 2001
Messages
8,217
Re: Russia

oh me oh my...."According to the roadmap published by Cheney and Wolfowitz and Rumsfeld et al in 1992, Iraq is just the start. Syria, Egypt, Iran, are next on the list, as is North Korea. This is called empire building. What brought down every empire prior, from the Romans on down? Overextending, and overreaching.And this was published 9 years prior to 9/11 This has nothing to do with any war on terror."<br /><br />Really? Where is this "roadmap",this documentation? This could be really "mind-changing" for me if it has a shred of truth to it. but forgive me, as I presently belive it to be PURE LIES, and am very interested in finding out one way or the other.<br />Basic instincts tell me this HAS no source, or you "won't be able to find it right now".
 

12Footer

Fleet Admiral
Joined
Mar 25, 2001
Messages
8,217
Re: Russia

And finally, "You think taking down Saddam is going to fix all the ills in the world, or even in the mid east? Good luck. "<br /><br />You think leaving him in power is going to fix anything at all,anywhere at all?<br />I don't believe in "luck" in it's pure form, Plywoody. Luck is 'winning the lottery'. Luck is not what I want to go to sea in.<br />Luck is fine, but to depend upon it, is suicidal!<br />I like a sure-thing. I like working to make things better as opposed to WISHING things were better. .
 

Hooty

Rear Admiral
Joined
Oct 2, 2001
Messages
4,496
Re: Russia

On the other hand, maybe plywoody is right. Maybe Syria, Egypt, Iran, North Korea and Saudia Arabia are next. Maybe it's time those treachous, two-faced, back-stabbing,chicken-di*k,snakes started looking over their shoulder. Think about it.<br /><br />c/6<br /><br />Hooty
 

KennyKenCan

Commander
Joined
Aug 26, 2002
Messages
2,501
Re: Russia

Hey Hooty,<br /><br />You said maybe Syria, Egypt, Iran, North Korea and Saudi Arabia might be next.<br /><br />Its not maybe, its when!<br /><br />People forget that President Bush said "either you are with us in defeating terrorism worldwide, or you are with the terrorist's, and that we will get them, no matter the cost, no matter where they are", and those countries are next if they don't comply with the civilized world and continue to impeed the progress of civilized countries.<br /><br />Just remember, President Bush did not declare war on these people, they , the Iraq's, Iran's, the Taliban, Al Quada, Syrians, Jordanians and Palistinians declared war on the U.S.A. <br />Its war they wanted, now here it is, and they are tucking their tails between their legs and running and hiding.<br /><br /> NOW is the time, NOW it will be done.<br /><br />No more fooling around, it will be done!<br /><br />Time of apeasment and negotiating are over!<br /><br />The time has come to take on all who love terrorism and profit from it, like France, Germany, Russia, China, North Korea, Jordan, Syria, Saudi Arabia, Iran, and Turkey.<br /><br />These countries are now trembling in their boots over fears that when this war is over, we, the U.S.A. will find out that they have been violated everything the U.N. stood for, supplied weapons in violation of sanctions they signed, in exchange for oil for their own personal gains.<br /><br /> YES , World War III has begun!
 

SCO

Lieutenant
Joined
Aug 19, 2001
Messages
1,463
Re: Russia

Wow, this thread has slipped right by me. I have to credit Plywoody for giving us endless fodder for debate. I thought I'd throw out a plywood provoking observation( all in good spirit JB, not really breaking the rules here): <br /><br />Bush43 will likely be credited as the greatest President since Washington.<br /><br />We all saw that the middle East problems have , with technological evolution, spilled into our part of the world. Their problems are now officially our problems, and not now just because of oil. It's ideological. Carter did a good job getting Begin and Sadat to shake hands, Reagan hurt us there with the Lebanon pull out by conveying the paper tiger idea, but also got our hostages back from Iran and put the economy back on it's feet. Bush 41 stopped Saddam from becoming a Super Monster, Clinton wagged the dog. Bush 43 is going to solve the Palestinian problem next with separate states for both countries. We will then only have to nurture the new democracies. The bad guys will realize it is not in their interest to take us on. Things will get much better. With the old status quo, the only way things could have gone is badly.<br /><br />If we listen to that lone voice in the wilderness Calico, were done for.<br /><br />I noticed "9/11" written on the helments of some of our soldiers in nightline footage last night. That's why we're there.
 
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