Supplemental basement heating

[rogerwa]

I have a basement that needs some supplemental heating. It has forced air ducts, but gets pretty cold for a couple of reasons..
1) On warmer days the furnace does not run as much because it is warmer upstairs where the thermostat is and the heat rises from the basement.

2) On colder days, It is warmer due to longer running of the furnace, yet it does not get as warm as upstairs. It is not a matter of controlling the vents as I have already done that.

So I am looking to add some supplemental heating that can be controlled separately to use the basement as its own zone, if you will.. I also want it to be fairly cheap..

Here are the options I have looked at..

1) Gas fired firplace insert (there is a fireplace in the basement) - Could be controlled via a remote and would be pretty economical to run and nice appearance - This is my favorite, yet over my desired budget (Minimum ~$1400-1600)

2) Blue flame wall hung vent free heater - cost effective operation, inexpensive to purchase/install - Not so attractive - Poor WAF (wife acceptance factor)

3) Hydronic Electric Baseboard heat - Easy and inexpensive to install - Not sure of expense to run - OK WAF

My question is, does anyone have experience with the hydronic Electric BB heaters - are they more efficient that the standard BB heaters?

I am not thrilled about using electric heat as it tends to be very expensive -but if the Hydronic units add a measure of efficiency, that may be the right solution.

Did I miss any options?? My basement is 27' long x 12.5' wide and has another connected space that is 12x9.

 

[smclear]

Re: Supplemental basement heating

A hydronic would be the way to go IF you can provide enough water to it. Depending on the size of the unit, you will probably be requiring 3-6 gallons per minute. I've never seen one in a residential setting but there's no reason why it couldn't be done. In commercial uses, they would be fed from a boiler (much larger than a home water heater) that would most likely also be feeding an Air Handling Unit. They also require pumps to keep the water circulating. I'm not sure that normal household water pressure would get the job done. You might be adding so much demand to your water heater that the cost savings vs electric baseboard would be negligible.

 

[KurtG]

Re: Supplemental basement heating

We have the same situation and had baseboard installed as a supplemental when we bought. The inlaws wer living with us and never turned the heat off nor contributed to the bill, so I had disconnected the heat for fear of a fire. Now they no longer live with us and downstairs doesn't get used much.

The electric prices went up over 85% in MD and we are considering a LP fireplace for use when we do want to be down there other than doing laundry (library, family room, kid's computer room, guest room, and play room).

The fireplace is definately what the wife wants.

 

[arks]

Re: Supplemental basement heating

Well, it's nearing the end of the heating season so maybe you should look for a good deal on a fireplace insert. Sounds like what you want, anyway.

I often use a radiant-style kerosene heater - remember them? It does a real nice job and doesn't smell all that much. I use it wherever extra heat is needed - basement, den, etc.

 

[rogerwa]

Re: Supplemental basement heating

As a clarification I am looking at hydronic Electric baseboard heating. I do not intend to install a boiler of any kind..

The difference is that the hydronic electric BB heat has the electic heating element in a liquid solution that retains the heat. This is in contrast to standard electric BB heat that just has the element and fins..

 

[mthieme]

Re: Supplemental basement heating

I have hydronic Electric baseboard heating used strictly as supplemental heating.
I don't know what kind of fluid is inside of them, doubtful it is water...some glycol based cocktail perhaps???
Anywho, I have four of them scattered strategically throughout the house and rarely use them, but are nice when needed (like when the board in the furnace went south earlier in the season). They are 220v and draw 3 Amps max, so they are not expensive to run.

 

[SuzukiChopper]

Re: Supplemental basement heating

The electric hydronic bb heaters should work. I was lucky enough that I bought an older house where the floor had to be removed and redone and the previous owner spent the money to install a full in-floor system. Keeps the basement super warm and creates a noticeable difference for upstairs and furnace run time as well.

The one thing you may want to do with the BB version is see if someone can demo one. I'm sure they're still going to have a pump in them so noise might be a factor above and beyond what the fan creates. Also it will have more failure points then just a standard electrical one.

 

[aspeck]

Re: Supplemental basement heating

I have a basement similar to what you describe. I got a ventless gas wall hung unit and it works great ... generally the pilot light is just enough to keep the "chill" off and when it needs the extra zap, that doesn't take long. I am happy with that. I would suggest that you go with the gas fireplace insert ... add to the ambiance of the room and you are coming to the time of year where you can get some bargains. Last year about this time I picked one up for an addition I was doing ... 1/2 price.

 

[Tim Frank]

Re: Supplemental basement heating

I have never seen a furnace, in a house in a cold weather zone in North America, that was under-sized thus causing the basement to be cold.
There are other factors at play that are usually easily and inexpensively solvable.
1) During heating season, run your fan 24/7....this gives more uniform temps throughout the house .
2) Ensure that your ducting in the basement is rationally installed. For some reason builders love to put the heat duct outlets in the ceiling....hot air does not "spill" well.....check the temperature stratification and see how big a gradient you have floor to ceiling.

3) Cold air returns are another shortcut often taken. The addition of a few return ducts at floor level will allow better circulation and thermal consistency....in effect helping to counter the problem in 2)

4) Are the basement walls well-insulated? If not....

These are all measures that are comparatively inexpensive and should give you the results that you seek.

 

[rogerwa]

Re: Supplemental basement heating

Interesting comments Tim. The furnace is not undersized and it is a two speed adaptive model that starts out on low speed and then kicks up. It has some algorithm that manages the speed of the fan.

You are right. The vents are neat the ceiling or in the ceiling. It may make sense to move them down to floor level just to see if it help.

I also don't think there is any returns in th basement.

I am not sure how I would install the returns as the opposite walls are not accessible.

The only condition this doesn't account for is when the furnace doesn't run as much.

Definitely something to think about. Thanks..

 

[SuzukiChopper]

Re: Supplemental basement heating

Cold air returns are not meant to be installed in the basement. Cold air returns are for the main or secondary floor of the house. They return moderately warm air (not COLD air) to the furnace to be recycled and re-heated with less expense then COLD air. Remember that warm air rises above cold so the theory is cold air at the basement floor level, moderate/warm air at the ceiling of the basement and floor of the next level up and the hottest above that. Attics are supposed to be cold air zones to trap warm air inside the house but still let moisture out. A cold air return in your basement will be useless. Maybe more cold air returns on the main floor would be helpful (I have 2 at opposite ends of the hallway, my house is 915sqft). More insulation (previous owners added 2ft) in the attic would help. Outside wall insulation in the basement and the same overall heating on the floor in the basement will help a whole lot.

One other thing to think about with your basement is what you have for floors. If you have carpet through out then your basement will be warmer when you don't have in floor heating. If you have ceramic tile then even an electric pad from someone like NuHeat would have been the best to lay down. Different floors and underlay will not only absorb heat differently but will also contain heat differently.

I do agree that having a few floor level vents from your furnace in your basement may help though... but may actually be minimal help.

I will say this with what I have posted... up here in Saskatchewan it's been -40F temps for close to 3 months, EVERY SINGLE DAY and my gas bill hasn't gone above $20 more a month ($20 above the $80 I WAS paying) because of the added insulation in the attic, in-floor basement heat and the properly placed 'cold' air returns. With a good insulated basement you can do away with the in-floor heat

 

[captmello]

Re: Supplemental basement heating

Cold air returns would be my first move along with running the furnace fan 24/7. Do you have enough headroom for a ceiling fan or two?

 

[Tim Frank]

Re: Supplemental basement heating

Cold air returns are not meant to be installed in the basement. Cold air returns are for the main or secondary floor of the house. They return moderately warm air (not COLD air) to the furnace to be recycled and re-heated with less expense then COLD air. Remember that warm air rises above cold so the theory is cold air at the basement floor level, moderate/warm air at the ceiling of the basement and floor of the next level up and the hottest above that. Attics are supposed to be cold air zones to trap warm air inside the house but still let moisture out. A cold air return in your basement will be useless. Maybe more cold air returns on the main floor would be helpful (I have 2 at opposite ends of the hallway, my house is 915sqft). More insulation (previous owners added 2ft) in the attic would help. Outside wall insulation in the basement and the same overall heating on the floor in the basement will help a whole lot.

Don't know where you got that info, Suzuki, but it is not correct.
The only place in the house that cold air returns are not required (or desirable) is in a bathroom, for obvious reasons.
If there is no cold air return, you are effectively trying to pump air into a closed box with no outlet. You have to have circulation or there will be no mixing of air and serious thermal stratification.
I have less than 2 degrees variation on the 3 floors in my house

Roger, unless soundproofing is an issue, you could help the cold air return situation simply by adding a cold air return at floor level in the furnace room (presumably in the basement) and cutting 6" x 8" or larger openings in the intervening walls at floor-level and cover with grills for appearance.

 

[ezmobee]

Re: Supplemental basement heating

My in-laws had a return added in the (unfinished) basement the last time they had their furnace serviced. They claim it has made a tremendous difference in the temperature.

 

[Mike Robinson]

Re: Supplemental basement heating

We had a similar problem, our home is a double wide modular that was never designed to be put over a basement. The furnace is on the main floor and although some one added ducts into a couple of rooms downstairs, it was not designed that way and, of course, doesn't work very well. Our solution was to put a high efficiency wood stove down stairs. I know this isn't the best choice for everyone, but in our case it works very well. I put a prefabricated stainless chimney up the outside with a thimble through the wall above the foundation which wasn't difficult to do. We have a single car garage downstairs so we store a months supply of fire wood there so we don't have to go outside to get wood each time we fill the stove. The stove works amazingly well, it will burn for 12 to 24 hrs depending on how the damper is set and it keeps our whole house warm. Around here, firewood is fairly easy to get with the only cost being fuel and wear and tear on the truck and chainsaw. Another benefit is that the stove works independant of electricity which is important to us during winter storms when trees tend to fall on power lines.

 

[SuzukiChopper]

Re: Supplemental basement heating

If there is no cold air return, you are effectively trying to pump air into a closed box with no outlet. You have to have circulation or there will be no mixing of air and serious thermal stratification.
I have less than 2 degrees variation on the 3 floors in my house

Yes, you do need cold air returns but there isn't one single house I have seen here that has ever had one in the basement around here. Explanation I got for that from various sources is what I had mentioned in my post. It's preferable and desirable to draw warmer air through the cold air return to aid in how efficient the furnace can re-heat that air (after it has been filtered of course).

 

[ezmobee]

Re: Supplemental basement heating

there isn't one single house I have seen here that has ever had one in the basement around here

This is an interesting observation. I wonder what would done by a homebuilder if the basement was finished living space right from the time the house was built new.

 

[SuzukiChopper]

Re: Supplemental basement heating

This is an interesting observation. I wonder what would done by a homebuilder if the basement was finished living space right from the time the house was built new.

I'm curious about this now too. It's hard finding even show homes with a finished basement here. I think my buddy had his done by the builder so I'm thinking a trip over for a look-see might just be in order.

Also, holy carp what a hijack. Didn't think my response and the information I've been given over the years would stir the pot this much. Sorry.

 

[aspeck]

Re: Supplemental basement heating

Ours is finished and it has a return from each room (exception is the bathroom). So, yes, returns are put in basements. I keep my fan running 24/7 to keep the basement from getting damp and molding. And the pilot light on the gas heater to "just take the chill out." Burning gas produces a LOT of moisture. So, if you go gas ... especially ventless gas, be sure you have something in place to remove the moisture from the basement.

 

[Tim Frank]

Re: Supplemental basement heating

Ours is finished and it has a return from each room (exception is the bathroom). So, yes, returns are put in basements. I keep my fan running 24/7 to keep the basement from getting damp and molding. And the pilot light on the gas heater to "just take the chill out." Burning gas produces a LOT of moisture. So, if you go gas ... especially ventless gas, be sure you have something in place to remove the moisture from the basement.

Bingo!!.... I wonder if contractors leave out basement ductwork in unfinished basements because they have no idea where partitions will be installed and it would be a waste of effort? Remember that typically cold air returns run in stud cavities and joist cavities just by "lining" the top ogf the stud or joist space with a tin sheet....not usually enclosed ducts per se.

Cold air returns would be my first move along with running the furnace fan 24/7. Do you have enough headroom for a ceiling fan or two?

Agree completely. This has solved the basement problem in my house so completely that I had to insulate the INSIDE wall of the small room where I store wine to keep it from warming up to the basement temp. I even have a vent to the outside in there to let in cold air....


And Suzuki, I don't think you hijacked anything. You've done nothing but offer an opinion, in a very civil tone, and there has been a lot of discussion. Roger, the OP, is really getting his money's worth I would say!