VHF Radio Installation w/ Pics

sweet addiction

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Re: VHF Radio Installation w/ Pics

Can you guys tell that I don't really like RF electronics, etc. . . .
That's OK, There are some experienced folks here to help. :)
 

sweet addiction

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Re: VHF Radio Installation w/ Pics

Even if the SWR isn't in what you would consider specs there isn't anyway to adjust it. It's not like a CB antenna where you trim the end.I don't think you can trim the ends of a fiberglass marine antenna
We discussed this already. He knows that he can't adjust the antenna. What he is trying to do is make sure his connections are solid. Which testing his SWR should confirm this.
 

Capt Sully

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Re: VHF Radio Installation w/ Pics

With an ohm meter, you are just checking the DC characteristics. What happens at RF is a whole different story.

Coiling the cable isn't going to do anything.

Not sure what you mean by DC ? there is no Direct Current in the antenna line, it's RF. What your checking with the meter is for a short from making the the connections with the 259 connector and if the solder has shorted in the grounding. Chances are there will be extra cable so coiling will help make an RF choke for possable outside electral interferance. But then again, you could just plug and play:confused::confused:
 

jhebert

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Re: VHF Radio Installation w/ Pics

Not sure what you mean by DC ? there is no Direct Current in the antenna line, it's RF. What your checking with the meter is for a short from making the the connections with the 259 connector and if the solder has shorted in the grounding. Chances are there will be extra cable so coiling will help make an RF choke for possable outside electral interferance. But then again, you could just plug and play:confused::confused:

DC means direct current. The suggestion was to measure the resistance between the coaxial transmission line's center conductor and its shield, presumably by making this measurement at the PL-259 connector. Making a measurement of resistance like this is not going to provide much useful information about the condition of the antenna, the transmission line, or the connector, unless it just happens to be the case that the antenna in its normal condition presents an open-circuit at DC. Some antennas exhibit this property. If that were the case, then one could detect a short circuit in the connector, the transmission line, or the antenna if they measured a very low resistance at the PL-259. But many VHF Marine Band antennas show a DC short circuit as their normal condition, and, for those antennas, the measurement of the resistance at the PL-259 is not likely to be very informative, unless it happens to show a very high resistance.

The notion that you can make meaningful measurements about the behavior of the antenna at radio frequencies by taking a measurement of its input resistance at DC is misunderstood by many boaters, as evidenced by the confusion created by this suggestion. In order to make a meaningful measurement of the antenna at DC, you would have to know what to expect from the antenna. Usually the manufacturers give you guidelines about the DC resistance of the antenna. You can use those guidelines to make a resistance test.

As for whether or not forming the excess transmission line into a few loops is going to have immediate and significant benefit to the operation of the radio system, this is very difficult to assess in simple terms. The best answer (that is easily understood) is that the transmission line typically has a minimum bend radius, and by forming the excess into a coil of loops of a few inch diameter is a good way to neatly stow the extra transmission line without causing damage to it. It is much preferred to use a coil than to tightly bundle the excess transmission line into a back-and-forth looped bundle like the sheepshanks knot.

Whether or not the formation of a coil of unspecified diameter of an unspecified number of turns of the transmission line at a random distance from the base of the antenna will produce a measurable improvement in the performance of the radio system is quite difficult to assess, but let's just say it can't hurt.

It is extremely difficult to imagine a situation in which a coil will tend to suppress interfering signals. This claim cannot be made with any sort of reasonable basis. The general notion of forming a coil in a coaxial transmission line is to try to suppress the flow of antenna currents on the outside of the coaxial transmission line outer conductor from traveling back to the transmitter. The reason for this is to maintain a more uniform distribution of the antenna current and confine the antenna current to the antenna array, and in so doing to improve the pattern of the antenna. Suppressing antenna current on the transmission line prevents the transmission line from becoming part of the radiating portion of the antenna. The creation of a coil with coaxial transmission line can accomplish this, but if it is to be effective it should be placed very close to the antenna, right at the feed point to the antenna. Placing a coil five feet away is not likely to be of much benefit in suppression of antenna current on the five feet of transmission line between the coil and the antenna.

Again, these are highly technical aspects of antenna theory. I don't bring up these topics, but when others do and provide information that seems quite speculative or in some cases not very accurate, I think it should be discussed in more detail. In this way misinformation is not continually propagated to boaters.

If I may, I recommend reading my article which touches on all of these topics and provides some recommendations and explains the basis for them. The article is available from

http://continuouswave.com/ubb/Forum6/HTML/003311.html
 

tpenfield

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Re: VHF Radio Installation w/ Pics

this radio stuff seems complicated . . . Maybe I should just carry an extra pack of flares instead . . . :D.

I am looking forward to testing the reception, etc., but won't have a chance until Saturday.
 

bruceb58

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Re: VHF Radio Installation w/ Pics

Chances are there will be extra cable so coiling will help make an RF choke for possable outside electral interferance.
Coiling the cable is not going to help or hurt you was my point. You aren't changing the impedance of the cable significantly by putting it into a loose coil.
 

tpenfield

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Re: VHF Radio Installation w/ Pics

As far as the cable goes . . . the Shakespeare web site said that I could cut the cable as needed, so long as I left 3 feet of it from where it exits the antenna. So, I had a pair of clippers in my had and could not resist the urge . . . rather than coil up a bunch of it under the dash panel. :rolleyes:

My understanding is that on a CB radio, cutting the cable would be a bad thing.
 

bruceb58

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Re: VHF Radio Installation w/ Pics

That is utter nonsense
Agreed...a holdover from the old CB logic from the 70's that you needed a half wave length cable length for some unknown reason.
 

Capt Sully

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Re: VHF Radio Installation w/ Pics

Like I was saying........ With an Ohm Meter

If you are installing a PL-259, I recommend you follow this procedure:

--before installing, check the DC resistance of your antenna transmission line between the shield and center conductor. It should either be an infinitely high resistance (an open circuit) or a very low resistance, probably less than 1-ohm. Compare your reading with the manufacturer's specification for the antenna. The better manufacturers provide guidance on the DC resistance measurement of their various models.

--install the PL-259

--repeat the above check, checking now with the center pin and outer connector body of the installed PL-259. If you created a short circuit in the connector or you created an open circuit in the connector, you may be able to detect it with a DC resistance measurement. For example, if the initial measurement of the transmission line showed an open circuit, and following the connector installation you measure a low resistance, you caused a problem in the connector installation.

Of course, if the antenna was already showing an open circuit, you cannot verify the connector by measuring an open circuit; you could have a bad solder connection and not even be connected.

There are really only two likely outcomes with a boater-installed PL-259: it is either correct or not. Let's explore the two outcomes:

--if the connector is correctly installed, we are back to the beginning of the discussion. The antenna is going to have the VSWR the manufacturer created. You cannot really change it. The only other possibility is the antenna is completely bad right out of the box.
 

bruceb58

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Re: VHF Radio Installation w/ Pics

--before installing, check the DC resistance of your antenna transmission line between the shield and center conductor. It should either be an infinitely high resistance (an open circuit) or a very low resistance, probably less than 1-ohm.
How is it going to be less than 1 ohm? :confused:
 

tpenfield

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Re: VHF Radio Installation w/ Pics

How is it going to be less than 1 ohm? :confused:

I take that to mean if it is shorted out at the connector (or somewhere) you will get very low/no resistance on a DC test. I could test out the antenna at the connector just to see.

I get the Hyannis, MA weather station and that is about 15 miles distance away. I think that if I can get the Providence, RI weather station, then it is a done deal as far as a radio check, etc.
 

sweet addiction

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Re: VHF Radio Installation w/ Pics

No quite. The theory of VSWR is hard to describe in a single sentence.

"impedance mismatches in the cable tend to reflect the radio waves back toward the source end of the cable, preventing all the power from reaching the destination end. SWR measures the relative size of these reflections. An ideal transmission line would have an SWR of 1:1, with all the power reaching the destination and no reflected power. An infinite SWR represents complete reflection, with all the power reflected back down the cable."
 

sweet addiction

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Re: VHF Radio Installation w/ Pics

The subject of VSWR was not introduced by me. It is a very technical and complex subject. The notion that you can make misleading statements about it if you do it in a non-technical way is not a particularly good plan for providing information. If people bring up technical subjects like the effect of standing waves on the transmission line on the life expectancy of a radio transmitter, it seems reasonable that the subject be discussed in a way that brings out accurate information.

I don't see any merit in simple advice if the advice is bad advice. When people bring up highly technical topics it should be expected that there might be a discussion in the technical realm.

Well the only reason I brought the topic of SRW up to the OP was to make sure that he had a proper connection at the 259. Quick easy way to tell if everything is copacetic right? I think so. Everything would have been nice and simple for the OP, but someone had to jump into the conversation and start being Mr big shot and confusing the hell out of the OP. Look all your info and knowledge is correct, and I will not dispute that. It's just that it really was not needed.
 

jhebert

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Re: VHF Radio Installation w/ Pics

Well the only reason I brought the topic of SRW up to the OP was to make sure that he had a proper connection at the 259. Quick easy way to tell if everything is copacetic right? I think so. Everything would have been nice and simple for the OP, but someone had to jump into the conversation and start being Mr big shot and confusing the hell out of the OP. Look all your info and knowledge is correct, and I will not dispute that. It's just that it really was not needed.

It sounds to me like you are trying to take over the discussion and determine what can be said and who can say it.

I gave a simple method to assess the antenna. I did not recommend the fellow purchase test equipment, disassemble his installation, and begin to make measurements of some figure of merit about which he has no understanding.

Also, you have not answered my inquiry about the method to be used to evaluate the VWSR measurement.

If this fellow follows your advice, buys some test equipment, measures the VSWR on the transmission line, please tell me how he is to evaluate the information? What is he supposed to do when he collects the VSWR data for his antenna?

The notion that you have told someone "measure the VSWR" and that is in your mind "simple" is really quite absurd. You have given the fellow no procedure to make the measurements, and no basis to evaluate them.

Please give us the information on how the VSWR data is to be judged. Also, make it simple. You have set this as a requirement for the discussion. Follow your own rules, please.
 

jhebert

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Re: VHF Radio Installation w/ Pics

Like I was saying........ With an Ohm Meter

If you are installing a PL-259, I recommend you follow this procedure:

--before installing, check the DC resistance of your antenna transmission line between the shield and center conductor. It should either be an infinitely high resistance (an open circuit) or a very low resistance, probably less than 1-ohm. Compare your reading with the manufacturer's specification for the antenna. The better manufacturers provide guidance on the DC resistance measurement of their various models.

--install the PL-259

--repeat the above check, checking now with the center pin and outer connector body of the installed PL-259. If you created a short circuit in the connector or you created an open circuit in the connector, you may be able to detect it with a DC resistance measurement. For example, if the initial measurement of the transmission line showed an open circuit, and following the connector installation you measure a low resistance, you caused a problem in the connector installation.

Of course, if the antenna was already showing an open circuit, you cannot verify the connector by measuring an open circuit; you could have a bad solder connection and not even be connected.

There are really only two likely outcomes with a boater-installed PL-259: it is either correct or not. Let's explore the two outcomes:

--if the connector is correctly installed, we are back to the beginning of the discussion. The antenna is going to have the VSWR the manufacturer created. You cannot really change it. The only other possibility is the antenna is completely bad right out of the box.

The above appears in an article I have published at

VSWR Measurement - Moderated Discussion Areas


If you are going to quote long passages of something I wrote, please have the courtesy to attribute my writing to me.
 

Capt Sully

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Re: VHF Radio Installation w/ Pics

The above appears in an article I have published at

VSWR Measurement - Moderated Discussion Areas


If you are going to quote long passages of something I wrote, please have the courtesy to attribute my writing to me.

geez, thats my point. what you posted is the same thing I said before you posted. Anyway I'm done this pissing match. go pick on someone else.
 

sweet addiction

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Re: VHF Radio Installation w/ Pics

The subject of VSWR was not introduced by me. It is a very technical and complex subject. The notion that you can make misleading statements about it if you do it in a non-technical way is not a particularly good plan for providing information. If people bring up technical subjects like the effect of standing waves on the transmission line on the life expectancy of a radio transmitter, it seems reasonable that the subject be discussed in a way that brings out accurate information.

I don't see any merit in simple advice if the advice is bad advice. When people bring up highly technical topics it should be expected that there might be a discussion in the technical realm.

Not everything needs to be discussed and analyzed to the N'th degree. Sometimes people JUST need to be told what to do and that's it.
 

sweet addiction

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Re: VHF Radio Installation w/ Pics

geez, thats my point. what you posted is the same thing I said before you posted. Anyway I'm done this pissing match. go pick on someone else.

No doubt!! Way to screw up a thread JHEBERT!
 
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