Welding gurus....advice for a newbie....

[Tim Frank]

A big gap in my technical toolkit is welding ability.
Three pieces of advice sought :

!) How reckless/senseless/impractical etc. would it be to go and buy a welder and just get at it with small projects that have little critical importance....and practice/learn that way?

~OR ~ is it almost a must-do to enroll in a basic course at a local trade college or similar?

2) Depending on the responses above, which type of welding is likely to be the most useful to learn first... until you pick up some skill and move on to the others? Oxy-acetylene....or arc etc.?

3) Can you get an arc-welder that is not a paper weight for under $100-? There is one on sale at 1/2 price at our equivalent of Harbour Freight ... $70-. Rating is 70A...input 120/240...Output 80A....Duty cycle 20% at 55A....with 1/16" electrodes, 10% at 70A with 5/64"...heat settings 60A-70A.

I have no problem with something that ultimately is limited by material sizes and scope of projects if i outgrow it, but if this is just a toy to start with, I would probably save up a bit longer and get a "real" one.

If I've started an "oil thread", I apologise in advance....

 

[robert graham]

Re: Welding gurus....advice for a newbie....

My 2nd on all your questions...I've always wished I could weld but have no idea what/which type to go after. I know you can get cheap electric welders but not sure what the limitations are. Oxy/Acetylene looks good but you gotta buy those tanks. Maybe a general course in welding at the local Technical School would be time/momey well spent?....and it might save you from gettin' hurt trying to learn!

 

[dingbat]

Re: Welding gurus....advice for a newbie....

It depends on if you want to be a welder or a rod burner.

Welding is an art. To be good you need a good understanding of metallurgy and you need to understand the theory of how and why you do what you do.

Your best bet is to take a couple of courses at your local college or Vo-tech school at night. It’s time well spent if you ever want to become proficient. Formal training is also mandatory if you want to get good.
Technique wise, they start you out gas welding to teach you how to control the puddle but I not touched a gas-welding torch since I left Vo-Tech. IMHO a pretty useless technique if you have the other options available to you. I use TIG more than anything followed by stick welding. If I cannot fix it using TIG or stick it can’t be repaired.

I know you can get cheap electric welders but not sure what the limitations are.

A good welder can weld with just about anything but cheap is cheap. Most cheap welders are under powered with very short duty cycles. I use my old Lincoln AC/DC buzz box more than I do my IdealArc TIG 300/300

 

[smokeonthewater]

Re: Welding gurus....advice for a newbie....

I'm far from a "welding guru" but I can fab about anything I need to.... First, with skill a person can weld about anything with a stick welder and they are cheap..... BUT mig welding is easy to learn and easier to get decent at..... If you want to learn, are willing to put in the time, and willing to get some steel to practice with you can learn on your own with the help of google.... example: last year I needed to do some vertical welding in a confined space and I wasn't doing very good at it.... I googled it and practiced what I read. Half an hour later I was laying very nice vertical welds.

As for a welder....... the size depends on what you want to weld..... The how thick can I weld with XX amps debate gets as hot and heavy as any oil thread..... My lincoln 100a 110v mig is RATED for up to 3/16" and with proper prep and very good tecnique it CAN lay down OK beads on that material but my lincoln 180a 220v mig handles that material SOOOOOOO much better and if technique or prep is lacking it can more readily compensate.

My old 100 is still worth having as I keep it loaded with small wire and it is my go to machine for floorboards and other sheet metal.

I'd say don't even consider buying anything under 100 amps and the cheapest brand worth messing with is a hobart.... you DEFINITELY get what you pay for in mig welders... you CAN save a couple bucks and weld with flux core for a while, upgrading to gas shielding later.

If the prices you listed above represent your price range, then watch craigslist for a used 100a lincoln stick welder... they are cheap and while a little more difficult, they'll weld about anything.

 

[81 Checkmate]

Re: Welding gurus....advice for a newbie....

Hello fellas,

I am a welding instructor and taught many basic welding courses at trade schools. I curently teach pipe welding.

To answer your questions, If you have never welded or have never been around it i would look into one of the courses, they are not all that much and you can get alot out of them. Safety/mach set up and the just of it. If you been around it then you could do alot of research on the internet and U Tube ect.

If you are going to buy a unit, start with the basic models, like a 110 volt mig welder for your basic garage work on thin materials. Plug it into the wall and your welding.

Most of these mach can handle up to 1/8" thick material, anything over that you need to bevel the joint and do multi-pass welds.

Then you get into gasless and gas mig welders. The gasless flux core wire works ok but if you use a sheilding gas with hard wire the weld is 100 times better and is much stronger.

Stick (Arc) (Rod) welding is alot differnt it takes alot of practice and skill to acomplish this, plus it is very hard to weld thin material with a Arc welder. I would not start with one being a newbi. This would be a step up kinda thing!

Oxy-fuel welding is ok for some things but it is dated, mostly used for cutting/heating steel.
Nowadays we have all the fanncy cutting tools and such.

Hope i have helped. Good luck to your quest and welding is great way to express yourself.

 

[sschefer]

Re: Welding gurus....advice for a newbie....

Check out this website: http://www.weldingtipsandtricks.com. I can mig, tig, stick and gas weld. By far the easiest is mig with gas. Stick to the name brand welders. Miller is probably the best american made welder. Lincoln is struggling with QC problems right now. Hobart seems to have done a better job dealing with it.

There's a lot to argue about welders and welding. I can stick weld with a car battery and a coat hanger in an emergency but you're just learning and there's no need to learn bad habits right off the bat. A cheap welder will take a lot of the fun out of the learning experience.

That said, you don't need to spend a ton of money. 81 checkmate's recommendation for 110v welder is a good one but I'd probably go with a multi-voltage unit. You just change the plug end on those and that changes the wiring so there's nothing to it. A 175 is a good starter unit that will let you transistion from beginning to even advanced welding techniques on the same machine.

If you're thinking about the finer arts, then get into TIG welding right off the bat. Most TIG welders have Stick capabilities and even though stick is harder to learn to do properly you should learn it. It's the best technique for welding outdoors on anything but a perfectly calm day. TIG and Gas welding are very similar in theory and even in technique. If you can TIG all you need to know is how to setup a gas rig and you'll be able to weld with it. There's a lot to learn with TIG and it is restricted to indoor welding for the most part but you can weld just about anything with TIG so it could be said that it the most universal welding technique but not the most widely used.

Notice I didn't say "If it was me" anywhere. You have to decide. The idea of taking a course is a good one but I found them difficult to get into at the local college. The classes are small and they fill up fast so it that's your intention get signed up now. In the mean time watch Jody Colliers videos at Welding Tips and Tricks. He's a darn good welder but has gotten some criticism for not being as thorough as he should be. I won't comment on that, I like the guy and he's come through with solutions for me that got me out of binds.

Best of luck and have fun!

 

[joewithaboat]

Re: Welding gurus....advice for a newbie....

I agree with all of the advice you are getting...

I learned to gas weld first, then wire, and picked up TIG pretty easy because i knew gas well. I think stick is the hardest to be good at. I have a tough time with it unless welding large objects.

TIG is buy far the most fun. Gas shielded wire is probably the most useful.

If you don't have any parents or friends with a welder... a class or two would get you a ton of knowledge quickly.
If you are a quick learner skip the first course it will likely be book learning. Not that it is not important but if i were taking a welding class i would want to weld, you can read at home. Lol
Good luck!

 

[bruceb58]

Re: Welding gurus....advice for a newbie....

I took a course at the local community college as well and highly recommend doing the same. I also learned gas welding first and then bought a 110V MIG Lincoln welder. I have since purchased a 220V TIG welder. TIG is very much like gas welding.

If I were to buy a 110V MIG welder again, I would stick with Miller or Lincoln and get the countinuous voltage control, not a tapped voltage control. The Lincoln 140C or Miler 140 would be the 2 choices that I would choose from. I would stay away from the Harbor Freight and other cheap Chinese welders.

A very good welding site is http://www.weldingweb.com

 

[oldjeep]

Re: Welding gurus....advice for a newbie....

1) Buzz boxes suck
2) If you are going to purchase then get yourself something other than a 110V - good, brand name new or used 220V if you have somewhere to plug it in. You will outgrow the 110V if you actually use it.

Welding class or learning from someone who knows what they are doing is a must. It is very easy to make a pretty looking MIG weld that has no strength at all.

 

[Tim Frank]

Re: Welding gurus....advice for a newbie....

I agree with all of the advice you are getting...

I am used to good responses to questions in here, but this thread does seem to be a bit of a cut above in terms of quality....

Thanks everybody. I now have a pretty good road map to follow....and probably more to come.

 

[rbh]

Re: Welding gurus....advice for a newbie....

I am used to good responses to questions in here, but this thread does seem to be a bit of a cut above in terms of quality....

Thanks everybody. I now have a pretty good road map to follow....and probably more to come.

Tim-
look in the phone book and see if you have an air liquide depot/store in your area, they throw on weekend wonder courses once in a while I understand.
(you may even get a free welding beany!!)
http://www.ca.airliquide.com/

 

[Bondo]

Re: Welding gurus....advice for a newbie....

If I were to but a 110V MIG welder again, I would stick with Miller or Lincoln and get the countinuous voltage control, not a tapped voltage control. The Lincoln 140C or Miler 140 would be the 2 choices that I would choose from. I would stay away from the Harbor Freight and other cheap Chinese welders.

Ayuh,... Ditto.... For a beginner, 1 of those machines can be seen as an investment....

It's a few bucks more, but worth it.... if ya stick with welding, it'll become yer Go To machine,...
If ya don't like welding, it'll be worth near retail so long as it still Looks newish...

I know, I've got 5 workin' welders in my garage now.... my go to, is a Lincoln 140amp, 120v unit with flux-core wire...

My new Hobark 180 Trek is probably gonna bump the ole Lincoln to 2nd fiddle though...
4 minutes trigger time at 180 amps, 'n No extension cord....
Continuous cord draw of 7.5w... it'll run off my truck inverter, where the Lincoln won't...

 

[bigdee]

Re: Welding gurus....advice for a newbie....

I know you can get cheap electric welders but not sure what the limitations are. might save you from

I know the skeptics will disagree but this little welder is FANTASTIC. It is very easy to learn and use, it is DC so it makes decent looking beads. This thing is about the size and weight of a shoe box and has an unbelievable duty cycle,I can weld just about non-stop except to change rods.

http://www.harborfreight.com/welding/arc-welders/80-amp-inverter-arc-welder-91110.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9uzSRDUCtzI

 

[LippCJ7]

Re: Welding gurus....advice for a newbie....

Far from a Professional but I took welding in High School, First we learned Gas welding and brazing, next we learned to Arc weld with a stick and finally Mig and Tig, I highly suggest taking a class.

But if you are hard headed like a lot of people(me included) I agree that a 110 VAC Mig is a good starting point for a novice, one that can use flux wire but is expandable to gas as well. I have to tell you the first Welder I bought was one that I learned on in School and 25 years later it is still the most fun Welder I have to this day

http://www.google.com/products/cata...a=X&ei=SFl6T7DOHZOXtwf3pKTTBA&ved=0CH4Q8wIwAg

You can buy these at Lowes, one of the single most popular welders ever built with huge growth potential.

I use gas very rarely anymore in fact I don't think I have used my gas since I acquired a plasma cutter, it just collects dust anymore. but my Arc is right next to my Miller 240VAC Mig which is the welder I use most.

Right now I think my collection includes, Oxy/acet. gas welder/cutting, 110VAC Lincoln MIG, 240VAC Miller MIG and 240 VAC Lincoln ARC welder. Once you jump in it gets pretty expensive pretty quick!! Probably look for the Spool gun for my Miller next and then look towards TIG after that, both are capable to do Aluminum.

Have fun with it and remember to wear your PPE and use safe welding practices, Welding is something I enjoy very much, good looking beads mean nothing without proper penetration.

I would also invest in an auto darkening helmet/visor, it makes learning much easier...

 

[Fishing Dude too]

Re: Welding gurus....advice for a newbie....

I weld some, less than a dozen times a year but I can weld well. I took classes at the local high school trade school. I then practiced beyond school, now when I need to weld I break out the welder and get er done. I can stick weld but not nearly as well as my old friend Duke who was a pipe welder, I know mig welding which I am very good at, I tig but do a good job. The classes cost about 100 but was well worth it, but work paid me back for them. They taught horizontal, vertical up, and overhead.

 

[Tim Frank]

Re: Welding gurus....advice for a newbie....

My new Hobark 180 Trek is probably gonna bump the ole Lincoln to 2nd fiddle though...
4 minutes trigger time at 180 amps, 'n No extension cord....
Continuous cord draw of 7.5w... it'll run off my truck inverter, where the Lincoln won't...

So I looked up that model....and thought..."hey, nice price'....then noticed there was an extra decimal...

No wonder Bond-o likes it so much....

 

[bigdee]

Re: Welding gurus....advice for a newbie....

I have to tell you the first Welder I bought was one that I learned on in School and 25 years later it is still the most fun Welder I have to this day

http://www.google.com/products/cata...a=X&ei=SFl6T7DOHZOXtwf3pKTTBA&ved=0CH4Q8wIwAg

I have had that old Lincoln buzz box for over 30 years. I believe it is the most popular ac welder on the market. However, I rarely use it since getting that little HF welder. For ease of use and portability the HF inverter welder can't be beat...I weld everything from sheet metal to 3/16 angle and exhaust pipes with it and do not have to worry about duty cycle.....the duty cycle on the Lincoln is only 20%

 

[81 Checkmate]

Re: Welding gurus....advice for a newbie....

Thought i would chime back in on this subject. All great comments and advise about welders and welding.

For the novice as many has mentioned the 110 volt mig welder is the best bang for the buck for small jobs and tinkering. They have come along way with these units and you can get more for your doller than a few years ago. It all comes down to how much money you want to spend and what your intensions are. Sure you can go out spend 5 grand and get the cream of the crop, but is that what you realy need. After you get decent at it then you can upgrade to a more expensive unit, but ill bet you will go back and use the little welder to weld sheet metal on your project car.

As far as Tig welding goes.... it is the cream of the crop!
People always say that they bought this expensive Tig unit with all the gagets and so on for x amount of dollers becouse someone told them... This is what you need in order to Tig weld or you cant do it. This is true to a certin extent, it all comes down to the type of metal you are welding on.
You can Tig weld just about any type of metal with a AC/DC Arc welding power source.. Now here's the catch, to Tig weld Aluminum you do need the fancy Tig unit with AC and High Frequency.

If you have an 220 volt - 200 AMP basic Arc welder you can Tig weld with it, no need to have all the fancy stuff on your welding mach. You will need these items in order to do it.
1. One bottle of Argon shileding gas. Rent or buy a Big or small bottle depending on your usage.
2. A Tig rig- consisting of .... Torch head. Air cooled power cable, stinger block, argon hose and argon regulator. Your local welding supply house should have a 150 amp Tig torch package for around $150.00 bucks.
3. Extra Tungsten, cups and filler wire. Filler wire - ER-70S-6 for carbon, 308-L for stainless

Now we can start Tig welding..... Put your welder in straight polarity - (electrode negitive), ground clamp in positive, if you have to switch your leads or switch your knob to Negitive.
Hook your stinger (Electrode holder) to the stinger block on the Tig torch power cable, Now we have powerd the Tig torch.
Crack open up your argon bottle then open the argon knob on your torch and adjust your argon flow on the regulator. 20-30 cfh depending on conditions.
This will be a scratch start system, meaning you have to touch the tungsten to the metal to get it to arc.
Set your heat (Amps) for the metal being welded and off you go. Now you are Tig welding.

Of course with the expensive units you will have the - Water cooled torch, foot pedal, arc control, gase flow setting, ect.

I really all depends on what kind of welding you are going to do!

Just thought i would throw this in the mix for the people that already have Arc welding machines.

 

[The_Kid]

Re: Welding gurus....advice for a newbie....

I have had that old Lincoln buzz box for over 30 years. I believe it is the most popular ac welder on the market. However, I rarely use it since getting that little HF welder. For ease of use and portability the HF inverter welder can't be beat...I weld everything from sheet metal to 3/16 angle and exhaust pipes with it and do not have to worry about duty cycle.....the duty cycle on the Lincoln is only 20%

Yes the Lincoln only has a duty cycle of 20% but that's at 225 amps. At 80 amps it's going to have a higher duty cycle than the HF unit which is 35% at 80 amps.

I typically use my Lincoln buzz box between 75 and 120 amps and have never run into a problem with duty cycle. With 125 feet of 4/0 leads I don't need to move the welder.

 

[RogersJetboat454]

Re: Welding gurus....advice for a newbie....

I'm by no means a welding aficionado, but my first machine was a Lincoln 120V/135A MIG I bought at Lowes several years ago when I was a complete newbie, and the machine has served me well. A couple of knobs to adjust how "hot" you want to weld (depending on thickness of the metal) and your wire feed speed, and you are off an running.
My former place of work had essentially the same machine for exhaust and light duty work, which was hooked up to a nice big bottle of Argon (I use flux core in my machine), and that machine would lay beautiful welds.

A couple years ago I decided to throw caution to the wind, and purchase one of the Chinese all in one inverter units off an Ebay seller located in NH. Supposedly he is a welder/fabricator by trade, and has these units built to his specifications. I primarily bought it for the 50A plasma cutter, but it will also stick and TIG weld. Thus far the plasma cutter works great, and I have fooled around with the stick welder part, and from what I can tell it seems to be a little easier going then stick welding with a Lincoln "tomb stone" buzz box.