What IF...Starting

[levittownnick]

What IF? (6 cylinder, xxx 150HP, ?97 Johnson) a spark indicating neon was connected to each cylinder on the engine. Would the running of the motor be compromised? Are there different types of indicators that work better? Are these indicators only good at no-load?

(This engine was purchased new 13 years ago and other than this problem has been a pleasure to own. In the past year it has become problematic in the initial starting. Once it starts, its good all day. I have done compression tests on it with favorable results, The thing that has yet to be resolved is why this engine does not start after a lay-up of a few days. I understand either (starting fluid) is a no ? no but I have tried that several times without success. I have checked spark but was not sure if the bright sun light masked the spark of if there was none. I?ve had the engine start as I was checking spark! After it kicks there is little point in checking further because it will run fine the rest of the day no matter the number of starts. One time, I disconnected the ?kill? wire at the ignition switch and it started right up (upon cranking). I was sure I found the problem but a few days later removing that wire had no effect. I?m reasonably sure that its lack of spark but it returns before I get to the root cause. At this point I?m not sure if all 6 cylinders lack spark or just the 3 on the port bank. (Right now I?m in storage mode so I?m only thinking about it.) What I would like to do is have a spark indicator on all cylinders before trying to start it and observe what happens at each spark, plug spark or no spark. When she is good, she is very good, and when she is bad, she is horrid (or something like that). The fact that once it starts the first time everything returns to normal indicates timing etc must be OK. What the hell goes on when I leave it alone for a few (1to 5) days? It?s like a bad joke!)

 

[Dhadley]

Re: What IF...Starting

What's the model number of the motor you have? Not sure if there ever was a 6 cyliner 140 in 1997. The model number will tell us what it is.

Also, it's kinda impossible for a motor to start when you're just checking spark. To check spark the correct way you'll have a spark checher hooked to the plug wires. The spark will jump a specific gap and go to ground. If you use a neon in-line tester then yes, the motor may start.

Good solid advise depends a lot on what motor you really have. Let us know.

 

[1946Zephyr]

Re: What IF...Starting

Ahhhhh, I would just get some one to hold each lead. If he screams as loud during each test then I would say they're all firing good.

 

[jonesg]

Re: What IF...Starting

When I test spark I remove all the plugs, hook up the gap tester and jump the starter. You could try a timing light but adjustable gap testers are only $12 at any auto parts store. I set the gap around 7/16th inch.
Sunlight doesn't matter because I can hear it jump the gap with a crack!

 

[tashasdaddy]

Re: What IF...Starting

key has to be on to get spark.

 

[R.Johnson]

Re: What IF...Starting

I never really liked those neon tester's for a spark test. I never have owned my own so I don't know if they have direction's that tell how much voltage it take's to fire them. I have never liked a timing light as a spark test for the same reason.

 

[levittownnick]

Re: What IF...Starting

What's the model number of the motor you have? Not sure if there ever was a 6 cyliner 140 in 1997. The model number will tell us what it is.

Also, it's kinda impossible for a motor to start when you're just checking spark. To check spark the correct way you'll have a spark checher hooked to the plug wires. The spark will jump a specific gap and go to ground. If you use a neon in-line tester then yes, the motor may start.

Good solid advise depends a lot on what motor you really have. Let us know.

Thank you for responding. I carelessly listed my motor as a 140 but it is a 150 model J150EXEUE S/N G04209751.
Most but not all troubleshooting is done on the water when I launch the boat (The boat is trailored). With the port side top spark wire disconnected, it did start (on 5 cilinders). I was not using the spark tester as it was home in the garage.
Thanks again,
Nick


Just a little note to 1946Zephyr. May I take it that you would like to volunteer for the scream test? lol.

 

[asdasc]

Re: What IF...Starting

My friends 70HP Johnson did the same thing. After arguing with the so-called experts on here for a couple months that the choke plates were closing properly, they convinced me they were not.

They were right! Once that was adjusted properly, it now fires up perfectly, every time.

The vaccuum they create is the only prime his engine got. Without it he always had to use ether unless it was warmed up.

 

[ezeke]

Re: What IF...Starting

My friends 70HP Johnson did the same thing. After arguing with the so-called experts on here for a couple months that the choke plates were closing properly, they convinced me they were not.

They were right! Once that was adjusted properly, it now fires up perfectly, every time.

The vaccuum they create is the only prime his engine got. Without it he always had to use ether unless it was warmed up.

The 1997 has a primer solenoid, but the principle is the same; check the primer solenoid for proper function.

Also be sure that the timing is advancing for the cold start,

 

[asdasc]

Re: What IF...Starting

Is that the one where you have to hold in the key for 5 seconds prior to starting it, or something like that? I have never had an outboard newer than 1960.

 

[levittownnick]

Re: What IF...Starting

Is that the one where you have to hold in the key for 5 seconds prior to starting it, or something like that? I have never had an outboard newer than 1960.

Yes. I am quite familar with the normal starting procedure as I have this engine since it was new in 1997. Also to be considered is that when its in the will not start condition, even either does not make it kick. I seriously doubt that its a fuel issue. For some reason unknown to me, it seems like i don't get spark at least to some of the cilinders. IF it stayed in that condition, I'm sure I could track the problem. Thanks for your good thoughts.

 

[levittownnick]

Re: What IF...Starting

key has to be on to get spark.

I know I'm not the brighest light bulb but was I just dissed? lol

 

[ezeke]

Re: What IF...Starting

I know I'm not the brighest light bulb but was I just dissed? lol

I think TD was reminding jonesg that if the key was turned off the powerpack would be grounded.

 

[levittownnick]

Re: What IF...Starting

Thank you for responding. I carelessly listed my motor as a 140 but it is a 150 model J150EXEUE S/N G04209751.
Most but not all troubleshooting is done on the water when I launch the boat (The boat is trailored). With the port side top spark wire disconnected, it did start (on 5 cilinders). I was not using the spark tester as it was home in the garage.
Thanks again,
Nick


This thread has been dorment for awhile but I would like to revive it as spring is on the way.
Dhadley had (correctly) pointed out that it is a 150HP (not 140HP). I am looking forward to see if he has any insight for me.

Thank you,
Nick

 

[Madfisherman]

Re: What IF...Starting

You could try this, I'm not sure if that engine had a shift cutout switch or not, but if it did, try disconnecting that prior to starting & see if that makes any difference. It cuts spark to 3 cyl & if it's playing up (mine has - different 150 though) it'll kill power to three cyl while it's operating. It should only operate while shifting, but they do go bad sometimes & operate at their whim.

 

[psteurer]

Re: What IF...Starting

I read thru these threads. If I understand correctly, you want to have a spark tester that you use for all six cylinders at one time to see if some are not firing. If so, there is a tool called an inline spark tester checker. This tool will not tell you the spark intensity but it will tell you whether you have spark. There is one available from Harbor Freight: http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=4424

Buy 6 of them, then start it up and watch the lights flash. You can use them when the motor is running. I must admit that I have two of these things and use them all the time.

 

[levittownnick]

Re: What IF...Starting

I have eliminated the shifter switch by disconnecting it's wire during troubleshooting. But thank you Madfisherman for the thought.

Thanks for the link Psteurer, that is the type of gizmo I was asking about. The question I still have is if the engine will run with this 6 of these or will it cause the spark to degrade so that it will not have enough energy at the plug. On the positive side, it really is not that much of a problem because there isn't any need to run with them. The real help is in identifying spark or no spark.

Thank you much,
Nick

 

[jonesg]

Re: What IF...Starting

If you buy 6 neon testers you still need a $10 gap tester set to 7/16th inch gap. A timing light will tell you the same thing as a neon tester, thats not enough though. Those widgets are good for finding if you are dropping a cylinder under way. You'd better informed by using a rag to hold the wire and a screwdriver blade to check for spark.

Next time it balks at startup and you have choked it half to death, remove a plug to see if its wet with raw fuel.

A balky choke solenoid will make it very hard to start initially, but once wet it will fire right up. They like to be nice and juicy with fuel to fire up.

You could try choking it manually with your hands.
Can you hear the choke solenoid click?
is the red lever in the correct position ?
Examine it carefully for leaks, the seal is replaceable.

 

[levittownnick]

Re: What IF...Starting

If you buy 6 neon testers you still need a $10 gap tester set to 7/16th inch gap. A timing light will tell you the same thing as a neon tester, thats not enough though. Those widgets are good for finding if you are dropping a cylinder under way. You'd better informed by using a rag to hold the wire and a screwdriver blade to check for spark.

Next time it balks at startup and you have choked it half to death, remove a plug to see if its wet with raw fuel.

A balky choke solenoid will make it very hard to start initially, but once wet it will fire right up. They like to be nice and juicy with fuel to fire up.

You could try choking it manually with your hands.
Can you hear the choke solenoid click?
is the red lever in the correct position ?
Examine it carefully for leaks, the seal is replaceable.

This engine after sitting on a trailer for a few days may or may not start. If it does start it will be fine the entire day starting near instantly. I have all but eliminated fuel as a cause by substitution. When there is spark, it easily jumps the 7/16? test gap. When it doesn?t start, I have found that at least 1 cylinder has no spark. Because this will only happen intermittently, and only for the 1st start of the day, I have not been able to tell if there is no spark in any cylinder or only in the cylinders served by one electronic module. For that reason I wanted to monitor all 6 cylinders simultaneously.

Thanks for your help

 

[jonesg]

Re: What IF...Starting

Ya may have poor ignition grounds, ignition coil grounds can get like that.
Remove the balky cylinders coil and check the mounting area for crud.
Any of the harness plugs to and from stator , powerpack etc, unplug them and check for green corrosion, spray with CRC elec spray from napa.
Apply dialectric grease to seal out moisture.

When it doesn't spark try swapping a sparkplug wire from another cylinder.