What to do next?

[ckgreenman]

Re: What to do next?

Dude pull your block and check it out.It may be fine.Do you see marks or lines in cylinders?Do you see hone marks?Plastigage your crank.Check rods and mains.
Id drop in a new oil pump seals ect.If you have a good machinist follow his recommendations on the heads.Now if your going to have to pay someone to do all this work a long block looks great.By the way not all marine engines use special pistons.some are cast and carry the same replacement number as a truck or car.Do your own home work.If it were mine this is the path id follow.
I dropped in a 96 305 truck engine with all my marine parts.Heads block crank pistons all truck.Never tore into it just seals.Ran like a scalded hound all summer.

#5 does have rust since it did have water in it. I also saw vertical lines on the #8 cylinder wall that looked like rust. #8 exhaust valve was rusted so I'm sure what's on the cylinder IS rust. If I do the work I will DEFINITELY do it right and use the right parts. Hypereutectic pistons, severe duty valves and train, marine gaskets, the works. I also need to test the exhaust manifolds since it's acting like they might be cracked. According to my local boat guy (not the race shop mechanic who has the heads) I can use Kerosene in the water passages to check for cracks.

Today I hope to get over to the boat and grab the original serial number, block casting number, and manifolds.

 

[Bondo]

Re: What to do next?

Quote:
My WAGuess is,... Your Fuel System is boogered up, causing a Lean condition leading to the motor self destructing at wot, due to Detonation...

Sorry, yeah I forgot that part. the fuel system was definitely screwed too. The carb was gummed up and running lean. In addition to the stock carb a friend of mine is sending me a freshly rebuilt Edelbrock 1406 which I'm planning on using.

Ayuh,... You need to start Right at the Fuel Tank, then work your way to the Carb....
Then after you get it runnin'...
Spend some time getting the set up Right,... The Right prop turning the Right rpms@wot...

It'd be ashame to Smoke yet Another motor....

I also need to test the exhaust manifolds since it's acting like they might be cracked.

Pull the risers off,+ Look for rust tracks....
No reason to mess with kerosine,... If there's Any question about 'em,... Trash 'em,+ Replace 'em....

 

[ckgreenman]

Re: What to do next?

Ayuh,... You need to start Right at the Fuel Tank, then work your way to the Carb....
Then after you get it runnin'...
Spend some time getting the set up Right,... The Right prop turning the Right rpms@wot...

It'd be ashame to Smoke yet Another motor....


Pull the risers off,+ Look for rust tracks....
No reason to mess with kerosine,... If there's Any question about 'em,... Trash 'em,+ Replace 'em....

Agreed. How do I get to the fuel tank? The boat is a 1996 Mariah Talari 209 open bow and the tank is deep in the bowels of the hull. My boat guy suggested after replacing the water separator/filter to run the fuel line from the pump to a clear container and crank it for a few seconds to make sure there isn't any crap in the fuel line.

Why do you suggest chucking them without actually testing? Seems to me that would be a waste of money if they're actually good.

 

[ckgreenman]

Re: What to do next?

Ok I need some advice. I went looking at the engine and I looked at where everything says the casting number should be (directly behind the port side deck) and instead of a casting number, this is what I found:

On a whim, I looked behind the starboard side and saw this:

What gives?

 

[mkast]

Re: What to do next?

Did you read the information at:
http://www.mortec.com/

 

[Bondo]

Re: What to do next?

Ayuh,... No real surprizes there,......

From mortec,...

10243880...350...95-00...2 or 4...Vortec truck, Gen.I crate motors and "ZZ4", roller cam, one piece rear seal

 

[ckgreenman]

Re: What to do next?

Ok So it's official I have a truck block with a 1 piece rear seal.

So now I gotta get the block out and see what shape everything is in.

Just out of curiosity, A friend of mine suggested I look into possible legal action since technically I purchased a replace marine engine and this engine is for a truck. I'm not very hopeful of getting anything this way but would this be a possibility to at least recoup some of the money spent on the original engine?

 

[Don S]

Re: What to do next?

Truck blocks are used by GM to make marine engines. GM doesn't cast "MARINE" blocks. They do install marine core plugs and marine cams when Mercruiser, Volvo, and the other marinizers order engines.

 

[Bondo]

Re: What to do next?

A friend of mine suggested I look into possible legal action since technically I purchased a replace marine engine and this engine is for a truck. I'm not very hopeful of getting anything this way but would this be a possibility to at least recoup some of the money spent on the original engine?

Ayuh,... You don't have a leg to stand on....
Go to the mortec site,+ tell me how many Marine blocks you can find...

If any of the previous mechanics had done any forensic diagnosis,...
You wouldn't have gotten the earier replacement motors,..
The 1st guy should have caught it on the 1st motor,... He didn't,+ the root cause is still there,...
The Fuel System,+ hull set up...
Motors aren't warrantied against Detonation,....
I'm amazed they replaced any of the motors after the 1st replacement motor...

 

[ckgreenman]

Re: What to do next?

Ayuh,... You don't have a leg to stand on....
Go to the mortec site,+ tell me how many Marine blocks you can find...

Yeah ikinda figured I couldn't do anything legally but I figured I'd ask. The one thing I thought might work is that the engine did not have marine grade parts in it. Oh well. I had to try.

If any of the previous mechanics had done any forensic diagnosis,...
You wouldn't have gotten the earier replacement motors,..
The 1st guy should have caught it on the 1st motor,... He didn't,+ the root cause is still there,...
The Fuel System,+ hull set up...
Motors aren't warrantied against Detonation,....
I'm amazed they replaced any of the motors after the 1st replacement motor...

 

[Alpheus]

Re: What to do next?

Yeah ikinda figured I couldn't do anything legally but I figured I'd ask. The one thing I thought might work is that the engine did not have marine grade parts in it. Oh well. I had to try.

What parts are you talking about???

 

[ckgreenman]

Re: What to do next?

What parts are you talking about???

Automotive grade non-stainless valves, improper springs for the came and lifters incorrect length pushrods, and the general shoddy workmanship. I haven't pulled the block yet but bet the pistons are light duty cast not hypereuctectic.

Oh well. I'll get it all sorted out.

 

[Alpheus]

Re: What to do next?

Automotive grade non-stainless valves, improper springs for the came and lifters incorrect length pushrods, and the general shoddy workmanship. I haven't pulled the block yet but bet the pistons are light duty cast not hypereuctectic.

Theres nothing special that comes in a standard long block unless you specify. Marine engines are usually low performance truck engines. You aren't gonna find all the good stuff like what you find in a Vette...

 

[ckgreenman]

Re: What to do next?

Theres nothing special that comes in a standard long block unless you specify. Marine engines are usually low performance truck engines. You aren't gonna find all the good stuff like what you find in a Vette...

That may be true but with all the mismatched parts in this one I'd be surprised if it would even run well in a truck either.

 

[Don S]

Re: What to do next?

Automotive grade non-stainless valves,

OEM valves are not stainless

I haven't pulled the block yet but bet the pistons are light duty cast not hypereuctectic.

OEM are cast, not hyper.

improper springs for the came and lifters incorrect length pushrods, and the general shoddy workmanship.

Don't get me wrong here, but with your misinformation on the valves and the pistons, why do you say you have the wrong springs, and incorrect pushrod length.
All of these cheap engine rebuild places throw the cheapest parts available in them, they never check the cylinders first, they just overbore to .060. (why do it twice if a .030 doesn't clean up)
Most of the engines are under 2000 bucks, and they make a profit so you know the top materials and a lot of inspection and cleaning time is not spent on the engine.

Let me guess, the shop also used old exhaust manifolds and risers, the boat was never checked to be sure it was getting proper WOT rpms, was the timing and advance timing ever checked? Does it work as it should?
Even during breakin, as soon as possible the WOT rpm should be checked, otherwise the engine could be overloaded from day one.

You can hope for warranty, but I don't expect you will get any from anyone.

 

[ckgreenman]

Re: What to do next?

OEM valves are not stainless

From what I heard OEM (from Mercruiser) are Inconel on the exhaust and Stainless on the intake

OEM are cast, not hyper.

Again, I've been told they are from Mercruiser

Don't get me wrong here, but with your misinformation on the valves and the pistons, why do you say you have the wrong springs, and incorrect pushrod length.

The springs are only 65 lbs 1/2" lift. I was told they should be 85 lbs for roller lifters

All of these cheap engine rebuild places throw the cheapest parts available in them, they never check the cylinders first, they just overbore to .060. (why do it twice if a .030 doesn't clean up)
Most of the engines are under 2000 bucks, and they make a profit so you know the top materials and a lot of inspection and cleaning time is not spent on the engine.

Understandable I'm just pissed that after spending $2500 on what I was told was a DIRECT REPLACEMENT for my Mercruiser. I knew it wasn't knew but I assumed it was going to use the same grade parts in it as it had from Mercruiser.

Let me guess, the shop also used old exhaust manifolds and risers, the boat was never checked to be sure it was getting proper WOT rpms, was the timing and advance timing ever checked? Does it work as it should?
Even during breakin, as soon as possible the WOT rpm should be checked, otherwise the engine could be overloaded from day one.

You can hope for warranty, but I don't expect you will get any from anyone.

Correct, the original manifolds, risers intake and carb were used as is. I don't know about the other tests. All I know is I took it back after break in for an oil change and "to check it out". Warranty ended about a year ago so no luck there.

I guess my biggest gripe about the whole mess is I feel like I got ripped off and right now I can't afford to buy a NEW engine but have to resort to doing it myself.

 

[Don S]

Re: What to do next?

Who from "Mercruiser" are you getting this info from. The OEM service manuals say the pistons are Cast.
Sure hope you aren't just taking some Mercruser dealers word for things.

This is from the Merc OEM manual for your engine.

Understandable I'm just pissed that after spending $2500 on what I was told was a DIRECT REPLACEMENT

2500 is not a lot of money, and a direct replacement only means it will fit and all the accessories will fit. Not that the engine is as good as a brand new one from Mercruiser. The Longblock from MC is way more than 2500.

 

[ckgreenman]

Re: What to do next?

Thank god I found this forum. It's amazing just how much misinformation a mechanic will dish out. The more I read the more I think I'm best off just rebuilding the engine I have with all new (matching) parts and calling it good.

Who from "Mercruiser" are you getting this info from. The OEM service manuals say the pistons are Cast.
Sure hope you aren't just taking some Mercruser dealers word for things.

This is from the Merc OEM manual for your engine.

2500 is not a lot of money, and a direct replacement only means it will fit and all the accessories will fit. Not that the engine is as good as a brand new one from Mercruiser. The Longblock from MC is way more than 2500.

 

[Don S]

Re: What to do next?

I take it your "Information from Mercriser" was your dealer, kind of figured that. A "Real" Merc dealer would have never wanted to install an aftermarket rebuild in your boat to begin with. He would have told you the problems with the rebuilders and would have tried to talk you out of it. But would have used an aftermarket if you insisted. But he probably wouldn't have suggested one, because that would have made him responsible if it failed.
Personally have run into several aftermarket engine rebuilders that put out really junk engines. Good news is that I have never heard them mentioned on this forum.
You can do it yourself, but you better be a mechanic and understand what you are doing and what to look for. There is a lot more to it than just putting parts together.

 

[Bondo]

Re: What to do next?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Don S
OEM valves are not stainless

From what I heard OEM (from Mercruiser) are Inconel on the exhaust and Stainless on the intake
Only Merc's Hot Rod motors...

Quote:
OEM are cast, not hyper.

Again, I've been told they are from Mercruiser
See above,...

Quote:
Don't get me wrong here, but with your misinformation on the valves and the pistons, why do you say you have the wrong springs, and incorrect pushrod length.

The springs are only 65 lbs 1/2" lift. I was told they should be 85 lbs for roller lifters


Quote:
All of these cheap engine rebuild places throw the cheapest parts available in them, they never check the cylinders first, they just overbore to .060. (why do it twice if a .030 doesn't clean up)
Most of the engines are under 2000 bucks, and they make a profit so you know the top materials and a lot of inspection and cleaning time is not spent on the engine.

Understandable I'm just pissed that after spending $2500 on what I was told was a DIRECT REPLACEMENT for my Mercruiser. I knew it wasn't knew but I assumed it was going to use the same grade parts in it as it had from Mercruiser.
The 1st 1 might have been better assembled,... This is the freebe warranty motor...

Quote:
Let me guess, the shop also used old exhaust manifolds and risers, the boat was never checked to be sure it was getting proper WOT rpms, was the timing and advance timing ever checked? Does it work as it should?
Even during breakin, as soon as possible the WOT rpm should be checked, otherwise the engine could be overloaded from day one.

You can hope for warranty, but I don't expect you will get any from anyone.

Correct, the original manifolds, risers intake and carb were used as is. I don't know about the other tests. All I know is I took it back after break in for an oil change and "to check it out". Warranty ended about a year ago so no luck there.

I guess my biggest gripe about the whole mess is I feel like I got ripped off and right now I can't afford to buy a NEW engine but have to resort to doing it myself.

Ayuh,... The only thing you've been Ripped-Off for is the lack of regular maintenance items that weren't verified by the 1st mechanic...

I think there's more story here,...
You were out running this thing at wot, with a Known fuel system Issue,...
How many other maintenance points are in barely acceptable condition,..??