YES! Electric Marine Propulsion IS A Reality (in pleasure craft)

[H20Rat]

Re: YES! Electric Marine Propulsion IS A Reality (in pleasure craft)

Reading the info there are some quesitons like in one spot it says a recharge can be done in an hour and in another spot says overnight. Top end seems slow for a 265 HP boat but she is a heavy beast (batteries are heavy) so it's understandable. With that said, its an amazing boat and achievement with the technology available today.

Wakeboats are usually propped/geared low also. Nobody wakeboards that fast! Anyway, a normal wakeboat with its ballast tanks loaded is going to top out around 40 mph max, so this is right in the neighborhood.

 

[Scott Danforth]

Re: YES! Electric Marine Propulsion IS A Reality (in pleasure craft)

reading the BoatUS article I noted a few things. the boat still uses a VW TDI marine motor as backup/auxilary, and they only run electric during mooring and anchoring

Yes, this is emerging technology, and it all starts with battery technology. Battery technology starts first in consumer technology such as cell phones, cameras, etc. then it makes its way to battery powered scooters, etc. then on to cars. The issue is that the technology is in the small cells. to make a large battery, there are literally hundreds to thousands of small cells (think AA or AAA) that are ganged together. if your running Lithium Ion, then you need to have battery management electronics above and beyond that of wet cells. until there is a company dedicated to taking the small cell technology and focusing only on large cell technology (BTW, there is no profit in this like there is in high demand consumer products) the battery technology will be forever based on many small cells joined together. The more cells in a pack, the more potential for cell failure.

where electric shines in the water would be frequent short trips - water taxi's, etc. for long duration excursions, the math doesnt work.

I have a friend of mine converting his sailboat to an electric propulsion system with a small diesel genset as backup. His rational is that if he is motoring, its only to get to where he can unfurl the sails and cruise along quietly. For his need, the math works (referencing QC's comment). he has shore power at the marina, a huge bank of batteries below deck, wind as the primary means of propulsion, and solar panels + wind generator + diesel generator as means to charge the batteries. his dinghy has a 25hp merc and a set of oars.

 

[QC]

Re: YES! Electric Marine Propulsion IS A Reality (in pleasure craft)

I have a friend of mine converting his sailboat to an electric propulsion system with a small diesel genset as backup. His rational is that if he is motoring, its only to get to where he can unfurl the sails and cruise along quietly. For his need, the math works (referencing QC's comment). he has shore power at the marina, a huge bank of batteries below deck, wind as the primary means of propulsion, and solar panels + wind generator + diesel generator as means to charge the batteries. his dinghy has a 25hp merc and a set of oars.

This works for me.

I need to explain something. I don't think of Hybrid cars as anything green, or even novel. They are a conventionally fueled, slightly more efficient drivetrain. That's cool. But they aren't really anything more. A plug-in hybrid (PHEV) goes one step further, and leverages the electric power grid, and it's efficiencies. But you have storage issues. Really kind of simple. Wind or solar "helpers' are cool too.

 

[ozenine]

Re: YES! Electric Marine Propulsion IS A Reality (in pleasure craft)

Hmm,
here are couple concirns that i have. Firstly, in the car hybrid technology takes energy from the moving vehicle during braking, so it recharges batteries during stop and go. In the boat you cannot do that easily, becuase boats stop much faster than cars due to high water drag. Then another point taht i have noticed in the article is taht they recharge the battery bank during "under gas power" operation. This does not look efficient.
Say I have gas engine that is 60% efficient at the best of times. I also have an electric motor with 95% efficiency. If I use this gas engine to power generator and recharge batteries then the best efficiency I get from the gallon of fuel will be 0.95*0.6 = 57%. It is a different story if i can charge at the marina, use batteries to cruse around and return all under electric power. But I have very high concirns regarding the weight of batteries.

Overall I agree that it is a step in righ direction, but not sure if it is just in the sake of waving a green flag or in the quest to achieve cheaper operation of the boat.

Just to add regarding solar energy - even with the panel covering all your boat you will need a loooot of time to recharge your bank. (Average solar panel output is 12 watts per hour/square foot) .
Chevy volt requires 9Kwt/hour to recharge. i would assume larger bank of marine batteries will require at least the same. So you need an area of 750 square feet of solar panels to produce this. AT least!

Wind does not count, unless you are recharging during mooring. If you are recharging under gas power then you are wasting energy produced from gas engine on rotation of your turbine, which gives you same terrible efficiency

 

[Chris1956]

Re: YES! Electric Marine Propulsion IS A Reality (in pleasure craft)

Let's start with basic facts. Commercial power plants use steam turbines to create electricity. The steam is made using oil, coal, natural gas or nuclear, with each having it's emission issues. The overall efficiency of the steam turbine is 33%, and the kind of fuel used doesn't change that efficiency. Also, Electrical generators are 99% efficient as are electric motors. Let's pretend the electrical transmission efficiency is 100%. It can be pretty close to that.

So an electric boat starts off at 33% efficient, with it's carbon footprint at the power plant smokestack or cooling tower. If you load up a planning hull with batteries to run an electric powerplant, the efficiency of the electric powerplant drops off, due to the weight.

The bottom line is that BTUs are BTUs, and the power per pound of fossil fuel exceeds that of batteries. Batteries are not expected to increase in power per pound. Scientists and chemists think we have reached the extent of that technology.

In my opinion, electric power for boats will be a speciality item. They can be used for lake fishing, as electric trolling motors, dingys and some other slow, displacement and short range craft. The wakeboard boat is barely practical to use, and horribly expensive to maintain and likely will need to charge all night, to run for a couple of hours.

 

[ozenine]

Re: YES! Electric Marine Propulsion IS A Reality (in pleasure craft)

Let's start with basic facts. Commercial power plants use steam turbines to create electricity. The steam is made using oil, coal, natural gas or nuclear, with each having it's emission issues. The overall efficiency of the steam turbine is 33%, and the kind of fuel used doesn't change that efficiency. Also, Electrical generators are 99% efficient as are electric motors. Let's pretend the electrical transmission efficiency is 100%. It can be pretty close to that.

So an electric boat starts off at 33% efficient, with it's carbon footprint at the power plant smokestack or cooling tower. If you load up a planning hull with batteries to run an electric powerplant, the efficiency of the electric powerplant drops off, due to the weight.

The bottom line is that BTUs are BTUs, and the power per pound of fossil fuel exceeds that of batteries. Batteries are not expected to increase in power per pound. Scientists and chemists think we have reached the extent of that technology.

In my opinion, electric power for boats will be a speciality item. They can be used for lake fishing, as electric trolling motors, dingys and some other slow, displacement and short range craft. The wakeboard boat is barely practical to use, and horribly expensive to maintain and likely will need to charge all night, to run for a couple of hours.

I am with you. For cars it makes sense since of the rolling motion, so you can accellerate and then cruise. With boats you have to be constantly under heavy throttle. Chevy volt gets 2 hours max of run time on battery. And I highly doubt that u can get 300 hp boat to run on pure electrical power for more than an hour or so.

As I thought, here is the quote from their website:

With 200 kW peak power and top-speed of 64 km/hr, it has the strength to pull you out of the hole in seconds, and the stamina to keep you at wakeboard speed for an hour. If you’re just out for a leisurely cruise, chances are you’ll run out of energy before the batteries do. At 8 knots, you’ve got 8 hours to spend on the water before having to spend as little as one hour to fully recharge.

Plus the price of the electric boat is 150,000, vs gas powered one for 50,000 max ..... buys a lot of gas

 

[haulnazz15]

Re: YES! Electric Marine Propulsion IS A Reality (in pleasure craft)

Yup, that wakeboard boat (and other electric vessels) are pure novelty at the moment. Wakeboarding speed for one hour? That's less than 30mph for an hour, which means if you have 2 wakeboarding friends to tow, by the time they have finished their sets, you are out of power. Also, who generally cruises at 8kts in a wakeboard/runabout? That's a non-planing speed, which wouldn't do for 99% of boaters in a planing hull, 8 hours or not. Running at full load is not the same thing as an electric car or hybrid car tooling down the highway at less than 30% load to maintain speed. Boats are not cars in that respect. What lasts 50 miles in a car won't get you 10 miles in a boat.

For those who are even considering efficiency of using a diesel generator to drive an electric motor, that's just compounding inefficiencies. There's reason that the majority of first-time hybrid-vehicle purchasers in the USA are not considering another hybrid after the first one. They just don't pay back the cost of the hybrid option quick enough. When battery tech can reach the point where you could get 4-5 hours of play on a charge for pleasure boaters, you could probably make it work for some people. Currently that would take a huge amount of space for batteries and a ton of weight (literally).

 

[metriccrescentwrench]

Re: YES! Electric Marine Propulsion IS A Reality (in pleasure craft)

.....

So an electric boat starts off at 33% efficient, with it's carbon footprint at the power plant smokestack or cooling tower.....

You're forgetting that more and more electric power is being produced with renewable resources - wind, solar, hydro, etc.

And as far as the wakeboard boat, the weight of the batteries is actually a plus. However, that's still not enough so they have ballast tanks in that boat to add additional weight. As far as top speed, that's a moot point for this particular hull design - as with many wake boats it's designed to be very inefficient (i.e. big wake).

1 hour of actual wakeboard time is plenty. My son's in pretty good shape, he and a friend will wear themselves out in 20 or 30 minutes combined. An hour of riding time would be good for up to 3 or 4 people. Look, I know this particular boat isn't the be-all and end-all of wake boats, but it's definitely useful for what it was designed to do. It'll be years before electric propulsion is here for the masses, but every step in that direction is a good thing.

Batteries are not expected to increase in power per pound. Scientists and chemists think we have reached the extent of that technology.

I don't know what research journals or articles you've been reading, but the ones I look at disagree. Progress is slow and difficult, but battery technology continues to improve.


EDIT: I'll add that I don't plan on trading my Checkmate in on an electric boat any time soon. I see the current technology as stepping stones to where we need to be, nothing more. BUT, the current electric propulsion technology is already plenty good for some uses so more power to 'em.

 

[ozenine]

Re: YES! Electric Marine Propulsion IS A Reality (in pleasure craft)

You're forgetting that more and more electric power is being produced with renewable resources - wind, solar, hydro, etc.

At this point I belive that it is less than 15% - 1% solar, 6% water and 3% wind. This number is not expected to increase dramatically.

 

[QC]

Re: YES! Electric Marine Propulsion IS A Reality (in pleasure craft)

Line 'em up Bubba. You need to hang around more, I've seen a lot worse than this.

I see the current technology as stepping stones to where we need to be, nothing more.

Define "where we need to be". I think this is where I get confused. I don't think we need to be anywhere. We need to embrace technologies that will work in the applications we are considering. In this case marine, and let's say 200 - 400 horsepower output and a planing hull. If the goal is economics, then the best is diesel and a trimmable drive, and this assumes you have high fuel use due to the higher cost of the diesel powerplant. If the goal is only tailpipe emissions, then it's probably Solar, or Wind through an electric motor. If you want both, it is probably gasoline depending on what emissions you are counting and how much fuel you use.

Yes, a wakeboard boat is an exception when actually wakeboarding as they bring excess weight on board on purpose. Let's agree that adding weight is stupid for all other planing hulls. Not as much with displacement, so back to defining the application

 

[Aquaman-PSD]

Re: YES! Electric Marine Propulsion IS A Reality (in pleasure craft)

Oh my! I haven't read one person argue the fact that batteries are nearly impossible to dispose of when they go bad after a couple years! not to mention the fact that I don't like the fact of 800 lbs of lead acid running around my lake! Gasoline and diesel fuel on the water are one thing, clean up with Dawn dish soap, but battery acid is entirely another story. Hybrid technology, and I'm going out on a limb here, in all vehicles land or sea is not the answer! Until we can eliminate the extremely toxic chemicals that are in disposable from the equation this is no more "green" than a gas burning Toyota Camry that gets 40 MPG. Sorry I know that this isn't a Hybrid car thread but the concept remains the same. Batteries are worse for the environment in the long run than gasoline any day.

 

[QC]

Re: YES! Electric Marine Propulsion IS A Reality (in pleasure craft)

There are studies that show a Prius is less green than a Hummer.

"One man's solution is another man's pollution." - From some guy who is in this business

 

[haulnazz15]

Re: YES! Electric Marine Propulsion IS A Reality (in pleasure craft)

... fact that I don't like the fact of 800 lbs of lead acid running around my lake! Gasoline and diesel fuel on the water are one thing, clean up with Dawn dish soap, but battery acid is entirely another story.

You plan on having a lot of boats sink in your lake? Not that I disagree with your premise, but lead acid batteries wouldn't be used in this application, it'd be some LiPo, NiMh, etc type battery and shouldn't be exposed to anything aside from the event of sinking/capsizing. However, yes most EV batteries have limited lifespans and are difficult to recycle as well as using a lot of rare earth minerals that aren't necessarily in high supply. Same goes with solar panels.

Either way, it's always hard to decipher the true effects of one fuel technology over another because of the way the statistics are gathered and reported (read skewed).

 

[Howard Sterndrive]

Re: YES! Electric Marine Propulsion IS A Reality (in pleasure craft)

If people want to wakeboard electrically, why not just use an electric winch. YouTube has many videos of winchboarders.

Leave the boat at the dealership and save the environment. Why propel several tons of fiberglass, when the objective is to propel a couple hundred pounds of human?

That 232SE looks like it is good for wakeboarding and not much else. I bet it costs $75,000 or more. silly.

 

[ozenine]

Re: YES! Electric Marine Propulsion IS A Reality (in pleasure craft)

If people want to wakeboard electrically, why not just use an electric winch. YouTube has many videos of winchboarders.

Leave the boat at the dealership and save the environment. Why propel several tons of fiberglass, when the objective is to propel a couple hundred pounds of human?

That 232SE looks like it is good for wakeboarding and not much else. I bet it costs $75,000 or more. silly.

It is 150,000:
http://translogic.aolautos.com/2011/07/20/in-detail-epic-232se-electric-sport-boat/

Since some of you are sceptical of the numbers that i have provided, here are the links :
Percentage of Aleternative energy in USA:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renewable_energy_in_the_United_States

Recharging Chevy Volt:
http://gm-volt.com/2009/08/20/charging-the-chevy-volt/

Solar Panels Output:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_module

Sure I might have misread these articles, but best effort was applied

 

[greenbush future]

Re: YES! Electric Marine Propulsion IS A Reality (in pleasure craft)

WRONG!!! Look at this ALL ELECTRIC wakeboard boat I'd referred to earlier:

http://epicboats.com/p-8298-232se.html


More and more boats are going to use electric power, it won't be overnight but it'll happen. It costs far less to run a vehicle on electricity than gasoline for several reasons (gas engines are very inefficient, the high price of gas, etc.). Electric motors are somewhere in the ballpark of 95% efficient, as is the transmission of electric power from the power plant. I personally think it's great that this technology is developing. Yeah, I run a dirty old 2 stroke and like to go fast with it - but I also realize that anytime we can do something in a cleaner fashion it's good.

Glad they are at least starting to consider it, but as we all know the cars aren't even practical yet, not even close for the masses. It will be another decade for auto's to prove they can do it equally to gas, for the masses, with pleasure boats following. For what it's worth, I invest in this technology, so it is coming, just not yet.

 

[haulnazz15]

Re: YES! Electric Marine Propulsion IS A Reality (in pleasure craft)

If people want to wakeboard electrically, why not just use an electric winch. YouTube has many videos of winchboarders.

Leave the boat at the dealership and save the environment. Why propel several tons of fiberglass, when the objective is to propel a couple hundred pounds of human?

That 232SE looks like it is good for wakeboarding and not much else. I bet it costs $75,000 or more. silly.

So in the case of WAKEboarding, what produces the wake? I can absolutely see the winch method for slalom ski courses, but I don't see it being much fun to wakeboard with no wake. It'd be like tubing with no wake . . . kinda boring.