1986 85hp force 856X6L no spark

[Nordin]

Okey, I have one question.
How did you split the CD module and how did you remove the insulation putty?
I think it is easy to repair the CD module if you manage to remove the putty.
The main components in the CD is the capacitors and the SRC transistors/thyristors and I think these two fail after avail.
The trigger voltage open the SRC and dump the stored capacitor voltage from the stator into the ignition coil.
CDI Electronics had a R&R system for the old Chrysler engines that was equiped with the MAG II system and they used some kind of solvevent to remove the putty.

 

[jerryjerry05]

I have never split one. My luck, if one went bad I could just swap them around and the spark would be back
They're set up so you can use the first side and then the second side.
But the second side won't work unless the first side is being used( hope you understood that)
The following link is to a place that sell them cheap, or used to???

Standard Magneto Parts

92-5104 Blue pack. $71.
Other places have them as high as 800$

 

[Joe217]

Okey, I have one question.
How did you split the CD module and how did you remove the insulation putty?
I think it is easy to repair the CD module if you manage to remove the putty.
The main components in the CD is the capacitors and the SRC transistors/thyristors and I think these two fail after avail.
The trigger voltage open the SRC and dump the stored capacitor voltage from the stator into the ignition coil.
CDI Electronics had a R&R system for the old Chrysler engines that was equiped with the MAG II system and they used some kind of solvevent to remove the putty.

I was not successful at opening it clean. Dremel, chisel , multitool.. it came out in pieces........ broken pieces.... i was able to identify the capacitors..... around 3/4" in diameter x 1 1/2? in size. As far as i know it is nearly impossible to remove the ........epoxy? or whatever they use........ the black hard/brittle filler.

 

[Joe217]

I have never split one. My luck, if one went bad I could just swap them around and the spark would be back
They're set up so you can use the first side and then the second side.
But the second side won't work unless the first side is being used( hope you understood that)
The following link is to a place that sell them cheap, or used to???

Standard Magneto Parts

92-5104 Blue pack. $71.
Other places have them as high as 800$

Thanks for the link............ I have already ordered one from ebay........ old new stock. I got it for $150usd + shipping + duty, taxes and admin fee when crossing into canada......... the first one i ordered was $205usd....... +,+,+,+ ended up costing me just over $400cdn

 

[jerryjerry05]

No salvage yards in Canada?

 

[Joe217]

No salvage yards in Canada?

Not sure. I would have to check around.

 

[gica]

I am having the same problem with a 1990 120HP Force so 2 modules, I rebuilt the engine and after driving to the Channel Islands 12 miles out long story short the motor cranked but no star. So, there was no spark in any of the plug wires. Since I bought the CDI stator new and only used the boat a few times after, so I was baffled to see it be dead. Tested the wires with DVA an got 0.5V and resistance open.
I know these engines inside and out I rebuilt both of mine and usually I can test and figure things out, but in this situation out of my twins this was the good running one and it sucked to have this happen.
My question is the same as yours why did this happen?
You asked of the sealed battery caused it?
I have a properly installed Blue Sea 7650 Add-A-Battery System with ACR and Battery Switchby instructions set up with 2 batteries on each side. The side that is screwed up now has an AGM for starting and a deep cycle for some accessories (not the fish finders those are on the other engine with a starting battery for cranking and a new lithium-ion battery that lasts all a week for accessories). I thought this is safe. I am not sure anymore.
So maybe somebody can answer the both of us why would you get no spark, besides the stop wires, and trigger going bad, modules both going bad etc.
Why would a new stator just fail and read as I stated before?
Sorry for the hijack but it pertains to this thread also.

 

[jerryjerry05]

From what I've learned over the years: The trolling/deep cycle batteries(even hooked up right) can cause damage to the charging system?? Now I'm not 100% convinced this is true??? But I've never used a deep cycle on any of my boats.
I'd try to contact CDI and see if that story is true??? "TECH SUPPORT 1.866.423.4832 CUSTOMER SERVICE 1.800.467.3371 www.cdielectronics.com "

 

[gica]

From what I've learned over the years: The trolling/deep cycle batteries(even hooked up right) can cause damage to the charging system?? Now I'm not 100% convinced this is true??? But I've never used a deep cycle on any of my boats.
I'd try to contact CDI and see if that story is true??? "TECH SUPPORT 1.866.423.4832 CUSTOMER SERVICE 1.800.467.3371 www.cdielectronics.com "

Even though I have an lue Sea 7650 Add-A-Battery System with ACR and Battery Switch

 

[tg3690]

The side that is screwed up now has an AGM for starting and a deep cycle for some accessories (not the fish finders those are on the other engine with a starting battery for cranking and a new lithium-ion battery that lasts all a week for accessories). I thought this is safe. I am not sure anymore.

Sorry if this was mentioned earlier, but on these motors that have only a rectifier (no voltage regulator) the battery itself acts as a VR. This is why maintenance free (sealed) and AGM should not be used. The CDI trouble shooting guide for your rectifier says the following in all caps...DO NOT USE A MAINTAINENCE FREE OR AGM BATTERY WITH THIS RECTIFIER AS DAMAGE TO ELECTRICAL PARTS MAY OCCUR!!! It doesn't say anything about deep cycle batteries......I guess as long as it is not maintenance free or AGM it would be ok. If you installed a voltage regulator on your engine then you can disregard this post........

 

[gica]

I just measure Brown/Blue and Brown/Yellow to ground and both were 3.5V so almost double from the less than 2V expected in the test.

 

[jerryjerry05]

Using a deep cycle battery on an outboard can potentially cause issues with the charging system if not managed carefully, but it's not a guaranteed problem. Deep cycle batteries are designed for sustained power delivery, not the high current bursts needed for starting. Using them to start an engine frequently can lead to premature wear and potential damage over time. Additionally, some deep cycle batteries require specific charging profiles (like AGM batteries requiring 15V) that standard outboard charging systems might not provide, potentially leading to incomplete charging.

• Damage to charging system:
  In extreme cases, the high current draw from a deep cycle battery during engine start, combined with inadequate charging, could potentially stress or damage the outboard's charging system, especially if the battery is significantly discharged before starting.
  

When it's more likely to be a problem:

• Cold weather starting:
  Deep cycle batteries generally have lower cold cranking amps (CCA) than dedicated starting batteries, making them less suitable for starting in cold conditions.
  
  
• Frequent engine starts:
  Repeatedly using a deep cycle battery to start a cold engine can put a strain on both the battery and the charging system.
  
  
• Incompatible battery types:
  If the deep cycle battery is not designed for marine use or doesn't have proper charging characteristics for the outboard's system, it could lead to problems.
  

Recommendations:

• Use a dual-purpose battery:
  If you need a battery that can handle both starting and deep cycle loads, consider a dual-purpose marine battery designed for both purposes.

 

[gica]

This is a link to the 2 videos of the batteries set ups listed as the Failed Stator System and the Good Stator System. The starboard is the one that still works but it shows 16v on the Voltage meter at the helm. The Port side is where the stator failed and it showed normal reading. Again, after I diagnosed it, I found a coil with the main wire cracked and the metal exposed at the base. Got 2 coils coming up. I also bought another CDI stator.
I need to resolve this, so I don't have to keep buying failed parts.
Starboard Side has a Marine Stating Battery and a Lithium Battery for the Accessories.
Port Side has an AGM for starting and a Deep Cycle for accessories. I probably need a regular starting battery instead of the AGM.
All go through Sea 7650 Add-A-Battery System with ACR and Battery Switch
Looking for a starting Battery

Dropbox

www.dropbox.com

 

[gica]

Sorry if this was mentioned earlier, but on these motors that have only a rectifier (no voltage regulator) the battery itself acts as a VR. This is why maintenance free (sealed) and AGM should not be used. The CDI trouble shooting guide for your rectifier says the following in all caps...DO NOT USE A MAINTAINENCE FREE OR AGM BATTERY WITH THIS RECTIFIER AS DAMAGE TO ELECTRICAL PARTS MAY OCCUR!!! It doesn't say anything about deep cycle batteries......I guess as long as it is not maintenance free or AGM it would be ok. If you installed a voltage regulator on your engine then you can disregard this post........

What battery or rectifier regulator do you suggest?
24 group marine flooded are the ones that have the removable caps and are not sealed. I have to change that agm. But I want to get rectifier aswell.

https://a.co/d/0buMSPx

 

[tg3690]

Saw your other post where you found damage under the flywheel......hope that fixes your problem. As for batteries, just make sure you get one that you can add distilled water to.....no maint free/AGM. The VR I used is the one suggested in the sticky at the top about "high charge voltage". It is a universal one made for snowmobiles, and probably made in China. Has 4 wires (2 yellow, 1 red, 1 black). Been running it for several years with no issues. But I am not running miles offshore into the Pacific Ocean, either. In that sticky I mentioned, a poster named RRitt, gives a good argument about not adding a VR to these engines. He points out that VRs are prone to fail, often without warning. Not good when sailing the high seas. I added one because I was seeing 16 volts at idle, and 18+ at high rpms. If mine quits it would be more of an inconvenience and not life threatening, as I only boat in small/med sized FW lakes.

01-090-1 - Universal Voltage Regulator (01-154-16)

Universal Voltage Regulator

www.mfgsupply.com

 

[gica]

Saw your other post where you found damage under the flywheel......hope that fixes your problem. As for batteries, just make sure you get one that you can add distilled water to.....no maint free/AGM. The VR I used is the one suggested in the sticky at the top about "high charge voltage". It is a universal one made for snowmobiles, and probably made in China. Has 4 wires (2 yellow, 1 red, 1 black). Been running it for several years with no issues. But I am not running miles offshore into the Pacific Ocean, either. In that sticky I mentioned, a poster named RRitt, gives a good argument about not adding a VR to these engines. He points out that VRs are prone to fail, often without warning. Not good when sailing the high seas. I added one because I was seeing 16 volts at idle, and 18+ at high rpms. If mine quits it would be more of an inconvenience and not life threatening, as I only boat in small/med sized FW lakes.

01-090-1 - Universal Voltage Regulator (01-154-16)

Universal Voltage Regulator

www.mfgsupply.com

I just bought 2 of those yesterday. It's funny that one engine always has high charge of 16V at WOT but the other one that just had a mishap with the flywheel never did. I actually already had a 4 wire one. I have a lot of parts for this boat. I rebuilt both engines and installed oversized rings +0.020 on both compression is 145 and 150 on both. When the flywheel damage happened I was 12 miles out perfect day catching fish and that happened. I have 2 engines but the other one had 2 wires break loose and I did not spot them right away. So we came back 12 miles or more using one engine and that was one cylinder short. Luckily the weather at the Channel Islands was calmer than I have ever seen it. 6 mph wind and 1 ft waves. The apps of course were saying 3ft waves and low wind. The apps are always wrong.
I just don't know why those pieces of metal from the bottom of the flywheel broke off; I don't even know their purpose.

 

[tg3690]

Man, what are the odds of both engines going south at the same time? Luckily that one was only a partial failure and you made it back ok. Going miles out into the Pacific is serious business. That is why I mentioned that post about adding a VR and possible failure. Having twin engines might make it worth it if you're having high voltage issues. What are the odds of both VRs going south on the same trip? Lol.

 

[gica]

Man, what are the odds of both engines going south at the same time? Luckily that one was only a partial failure and you made it back ok. Going miles out into the Pacific is serious business. That is why I mentioned that post about adding a VR and possible failure. Having twin engines might make it worth it if you're having high voltage issues. What are the odds of both VRs going south on the same trip? Lol.

The good thing here in SOCal is we have a US Tow Boat in every port that will come and get you I think 10 miles out or more for 160 bucks a year. I always renew it every year. They actually tow you on land to the house if your trailer breaks down. SO it is great. As far as the twins issue it was my fault I should have changed all the wiring in the electrical system because vibration will break anything that's old. I am taking down everything and replacing it.
Even my engine steering pilot bar that hooks up the 2nd engine steering to the first broke off in that incident because I lifted the dead motor out of the water and it put a strain on the end and it snapped. Luckily, I found a tie bar that is exactly same size for 75 bucks and twice as thick. These old engines are very easy to fix, for me that's why I am reticent to buy anything else. That and the fact that it would be an expensive deal to buy twin newer engines and new is not worth it, better to buy another boat with them already attached .

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