2 stroke or 4 stroke?

[paulgp6022]

Re: 2 stroke or 4 stroke?

Why is the super sport too small? How does it handle? Have you ridden in one? I will be just cruising around mostly.

 

[P.V.]

Re: 2 stroke or 4 stroke?

Well, BillP, not to beat a dead horse, but do you have any 8 hp 4-stroke Johnsons? I've been waiting since October 02.Then they said they would cancel the order and make us wait for the 03's, still waiting for those. Had to use 03, Honda's. They were available. Any 2003 115 4-strokes? Merc said about November or so. Merc is out of 2003 90 4/S. They said that they'll build about 50 next week or so., and I'm destined to get one but I better put in another order if I want more, and am willing to wait for them. I may be wrong but I think Yamaha is in the same boat up here. Demand is heavy and the Yammy dealer says he can't get their 8 hp or 115's. Not to be snotty, but I didn't think Flordia got all the motors first. ??

 

[BillP]

Re: 2 stroke or 4 stroke?

PV,<br />I guess you are talking oct 01 for the 8hp? I'm surprised you are expecting a lot from OMC since the 03 models have just recently come out. The last time I looked at their (Bombadier)web site they did not have a full line advertised for production. OMC dealers have all but dried up down here (to my dismay) while merc and yamaha have blossomed. <br /><br />Are you talking not able to get engines TO a franchise from the factory or to get them retail? What I see advertised every week in the boat trader shows no lack of engines...but yes there are always exceptions so maybe the ones you want are. I have no idea what happens in Washington but I'm sure Florida sells a huge volume in comparison...the inventory is large and motors are available. One dealer advertises 500 outboards in stock. Visit these places and you see them. <br /><br />Right now the last issue shows 2003 in stock mercs 90-4S exlp msrp $8434 for $7258 and 115-4S elpt efi msrp $8936 for $7779. All I can tell you is there are a lot of boat dealers here and plenty of motors on the showroom floors to choose from. If there was a long waiting list here I doubt the engines would be advertised with prices slashed. Like I already said, there are always exceptions but overall there is NO short supply of outboards (2s or 4s)for the consumer in Florida.<br /><br />As for Yamaha, since they are buying boat factories and selling boat and motors together it has probably put a limit on loose motors for retail. I tried to buy several flats type skiffs (boat only) a year ago and couldn't buy one without the yammy motor on it...according to several dealers yamaha would not allow hull only sales and were quite strict about it. <br /><br />The only wait I have knowledge of is on yamaha parts...2 personal friends of mine who own yamahas have *****ed about this for the last 6-7 years (saltwater series). Dealers are back ordered. It seems to be trending that way with Merc parts too. Yes, last week I had to order waterpump parts for my Mariner 50-4S. But since they are all yamaha it is to be expected.<br /><br />Anyway, you're a dealer(?) and should be an expert...I'm just a consumer who is not an expert. But, I have purchased exactly 36 motors (yes 36) and 40 boats over the years for personal use. This has put me around the waterfront enough to see lots of engines on showroom floors and deal with parts. <br /><br />Beat it all you want but motors are available in the south. Next time your at Disney, pick up a few.

 

[P.V.]

Re: 2 stroke or 4 stroke?

BillP, Yes, I've pretty much given up on the "BomB", they just want me to buy the "new" Fichts. If it weren't for the parts needed to service engines, most dealers would not be even dealing with them. Alot of posters on this and other boards seem to think that they will get their stuff together (most dealers have gone on to better things,thank you)but at the Seattle Boat Show this last January, there was only one dealer that had ANY Bombardier product at all!!! And Seattle IS a big show. But the only motor I really want from them is the 8 hp 4-stroke kicker. So I ordered 8 of them. It's been a long, long wait.<br />I also sell Crestliner's and a good friend sells Lund, We can not get 2003 115 4-strokes. Merc or Yammy. They may be advertising them there but if they have them, good for you guys. I did check those prices you had posted. Some were right on but some seemed too low. Perhaps they still have "non-currents" left (last years motors). ????And yes, if a dealer ordered alot of product and still has some, great for him, but to order a needed 90 4-stroke RIGHT NOW, it's on backorder !! Flordia or not! Believe me, Mercury would just as well sell me a motor as anybody else, they don't care where I am.<br />But, back to my orginal point, the demand for the 4-strokes is much greater than dealers and the builders ever thought. It is not going to be a fad, DFI's motors are not gunna rule the world!!(although some here are still believers, and I feel there may be room for all of us) and as a personal note, I believe that as soon as the 150/175 engines show up, you can forget about anything else. One more thing, in a couple of years, carb'd outboards are gone!! Do you think anybody(besides Bombardier) is gunna "replace" that motor with a DFI ???Merc gave up on the 115 OptiMax. What happens when people only have a choise between a 150 DFI or a 4-stroke??? Enough people better buy enough product to justify a factory (and it's overhead) producing those motors. And if sales diminishes due to weak demand, either the cost goes up to cover expenses OR the cost goes down in an attempt to generate the sale. It's the only thing Bombardier has going for itself, only one factory. Building one product. The question for some is, who wants a DFI motor ???? Then you better go buy one ! Soon ! Well, that's my story and it's changing minute by minute!!

 

[Jacques321]

Re: 2 stroke or 4 stroke?

From a consumers point of view the main reasons I chose a 4-stroke are two-fold:<br /><br />1. I want to respect the pollution laws that will soon come into effect.<br /><br />2. I don't want an engine that burns oil. One of the joys of owning a 4-stroke is you just gas her up and go, and change your oil once a season.<br /><br />In addition to that:<br /><br />I might add that 4 strokes never really suffered from the bad reputation that DI engines acquired in the late 90's. In my opinion that's because the design is simpler and more reliable that the DI 2 strokes.<br /><br />As one of the previous posts mentioned the numbers and consumers speak for themselves and in that respect 4-strokes have become the engine of choice for most boaters trading up to new engines.<br /><br />If I ever make the move to a bigger boat and engine I will choose another 4-stroke without hesitation over a 2 stroke DI reagardless of wether I want fish, ski or cruise, 4-strokes can handle it all with no problem.<br /><br />One more thing I might mention is your investment in a four stroke today will guarantee you excellent re-sale value down the road.<br /><br />A friend of mine at the lake owns a 135 Ficht and it runs like a top, it's fast out of the hole and good on gas if he keeps the RPMs down. He does find the engine complex to the point where he doesn't dare do any maintence on it himself. Whereas my Merc 90 4 stroke is a breeze to do your own work on.

 

[ivar]

Re: 2 stroke or 4 stroke?

JB, actually Tohatsu/Nissan have a 50hp DFI 2-stroke.<br /><br />my .02 on the 2 vs 4 stroke issue? <br />For cruising and trolling , get a 4<br />For skiing etc. where acceleration in an issue , get a 2-stroke.

 

[BillP]

Re: 2 stroke or 4 stroke?

It would be interesting to see the national sales numbers for 2 strokes compared to 4 strokes. Where I live we definitely see more new 2 strokes on the water than 4 strokes. I'd take a leaping guess that the ratio is 10-20 to 1. It's not even close. Lots of reasons but I imagine horsepower per lb and cost is part of the answer.<br /><br />I personally don't think 4 stroke outboards have been around long enough to have a "rep history". Unless you want to include the lone wolf Bearcat, which had a terrible reliability history and the small Honda 7.5...which was really the start of all this back in the 70s. It had major corrosion issues in salt water.

 

[Forktail]

Re: 2 stroke or 4 stroke?

What's a two stroke?

 

[Jacques321]

Re: 2 stroke or 4 stroke?

2 Stroke engines don't have valves. They fire once every revolution whereas 4 strokes fire once every other revolution. What does that do? It makes a 2 stroke engine lighter, simpler and less expensive to manufacture.<br /><br />The disadvantages of the standard 2 stroke is they don't have a dedicated lubricating system so they wear out a lot faster than 4 strokes.<br /><br />They also don't burn gas as effeciently as a 4 stroke. That's why cars don't use 2 stroke engines.<br /><br />traditional(not the newer fuel injected models) 2 strokes just pollute too much. They are on their way out.<br /><br />Find out exactly how a 2 stroke works at this great website:<br /> http://www.howstuffworks.com/two-stroke2.htm

 

[Forktail]

Re: 2 stroke or 4 stroke?

Jacques321, I was just being sarcastic. I'm a retired mechanical engineer. All my new outboards over the last 5 years have been 4-strokes. I can't imagine owning a 2-stroke outboard anymore, DFI or not. Now in my lightweight hill climber snowmobile? 2-stroke please. <br /><br />Bill P said, "I personally don't think 4 stroke outboards have been around long enough to have a "rep history". Unless you want to include the lone wolf Bearcat, which had a terrible reliability history and the small Honda 7.5...which was really the start of all this back in the 70s. It had major corrosion issues in salt water."<br /><br />4-strokes have surely been around long enough in the outboard industry to prove themselves, not to mention other more abusive industries. Now, high-pressure injected 2-strokes? Hardly proven in comparison. In my experience the 4-strokes have been basically flawless since their introduciton while the direct injection 2-strokes have had more than their share of problems whether it be a FICHT, Optimax, HPDI, or other. I'm not sure the 4-strokes could have any better of a "rep history". JMO.

 

[mneibuhr]

Re: 2 stroke or 4 stroke?

The link below is an excellent article describing the "pros & cons" of 2 stroke vs 4 stroke. Personally I would opt for a new DI 2 stroke.<br /><br />Just my .02<br />Mark<br /><br />www.boatmotors.com/outboard/outboard_motor_article.html

 

[BillP]

Re: 2 stroke or 4 stroke?

uscgcwo, <br />Thanks for the link. That was an excellent article...exactly what I have been hearing from some of the locals around me. It helps to see tests, as long as they are done right. Probably a 2S DFI for me on the next purchase.<br /><br />BillP

 

[P.V.]

Re: 2 stroke or 4 stroke?

Ok, Let's stir this pot!! That article is as bias'd as they come. Ralph is/was a longtime OMC engineer. If you want true comparisons, I'd wait for something like consumer's report. I bet an identical artical by a "4-stroke"_engineer could decifer those facts and figures 180 degrees the other way. And you would cry foul!!! Please, he's reporting what you want to hear!! Again, I believe that FICHT has their stuff together, Merc doesn't and maybe Yammy does, but is that gunna turn the tide back to DFI 2-strokes??? You better go buy one !!!! BTW, I was told Yammy has a new 4-stroke snomobile sled that pumps out like, 140 hp or so ??? Why don't they have a HPDI sled?? Does Bombardier have a FICHT Ski-Doo??? I think they have a 4-stroke one, don't they ??? Anyway, have a good day !!!

 

[orca]

Re: 2 stroke or 4 stroke?

G'day. The biggest problem that happened to DFI motors was OMC. Unfortunatly by releasing their FICHT motors before they had all the bugs ironed out they had huge problems. I know us merc guys were upset because OMC released the FICHT 18 Months before the Optimax. Boy, were we happy that Merc waited,however the problems that OMC had with FICHT were so bad that all DFI mmotors were tarred with the same brush. The consumer thinks that all DFI motors are prone to problems. I think that Bomb have the ficht problem solved, however only time will tell. PV thinks that Optimax has problems. I havent seen any. As far as Yammy is concerned I havent had any feedback at all either good or bad. Tohatsu appear to be running OK but it is early days. Personally I would put a Merc Optimax on the rear of a boat at any time. I hope that they come out with a mid size Opti soon.

 

[Forktail]

Re: 2 stroke or 4 stroke?

In my opinion, companies like OMC and Merc were late getting in on the 4-stroke outboard bandwagon and really had no prior 4-stroke technology or R&D to fall back on anyway. Re-tooling in the competive market probably didn't make sense financially. Thus they have tried to improve on their existing 2-stroke technology (High Pressure Injection) to keep pace. I'm not saying this is all bad. There are good outboards out there and they've introduced some cool technology. But I really think it is a futile attempt at keeping up with the 4-stroke market. <br /> <br />Big outboard companies like Yamaha and Suzuki, which have deep roots in 2-stroke outboards have basically ignored the 2-stroke high pressure injection technology market. Yamaha has only one HPDI on its 158 ci block. Suzuki has none. If any companies were going to make a trend turn to 2-stroke HPI, it would have been these. And Honda is so confident it won't even make a 2-stroke, period. <br /><br />I really don't see the market trend going to 2-stroke, emmission efficient outboards. I see the trend moving to lighter weight 4-strokes. And I see companies like OMC and Merc phasing out the high pressure injected 2-strokes in favor of new 4's. In fact OMC (Bombardier) and Merc have many 4-strokes now, and last I heard the Optimax was on it's way out. While Honda and Suzuki ignore the HPI 2-stroke market, and Yamaha barely dabbles in it, BombB and Merc seem to be adding 4-strokes to their line....all the time fiddling with thier HPI 2-strokes.<br /><br />I'm a Yamaha guy because of the great success I've had with them. Here in Alaska we have the largest Yamaha outboard dealer in the country (Dewey's). But they won't even sell you a HPDI unless you have a special request. They don't generally even carry them. And they certainly don't recommend them. Why? Beacuse they've experienced that they idle poorly, have difficulty starting, and handle the cold weather and cold water poorly....at least in comparison to their 4-strokes. Optimax's and FICHT's? Hardly see them.<br /><br />P.V., yes even the lightweight snowmobile market is going 4-stroke. Yamaha, Ski-doo (Bombardier) and Arctic Cat (Suzuki) all have 4-strokers. And yes, the Yamaha puts out 140 hp. American Polaris? Slow on the bandwagon. Where's the HPI 2-strokes? Good question. Could it be a weight problem or a cold weather dependability issue?

 

[BillP]

Re: 2 stroke or 4 stroke?

whoa PV...it sounds like you are crying foul just because the guy is an x omc guy and not what you want to hear. Sure, it sounded good to me but that doesn't mean it is believable. I never heard of the guy before reading the article. <br /><br />That's the problem I'm having...no real data to support all the hipe on 4 strokes. Don't forget, I have been running a 50hp 4S Mariner since 11/95 (96 model). It's been ok but the jury is still out for me until it has more real time. To date, it hasn't been any better than my 65 (domestic 70 with low compression heads and no vro)commercial Johnson for durability, only better fuel consumption and quiet. But, point me to similar tests biased toward 4 stokes, I'd like to read them too. Show me the money

 

[mneibuhr]

Re: 2 stroke or 4 stroke?

I agree will BillP, Just because the author worked/works for OMC doesn't make the article B.S. my read is that they tested a modern 4 stroke against a modern 2 stroke on identical boats and the 2 stroke was better all the way around. The push for 4 strokes has been based on the experiences with the older engines and the push to meet EPA regs. The result was some manufactures opted to jump into the 4 stroke market believing that only a 4 stroke could do it. The problem is the tree hugger/environmental extremists want to eliminate all 2 strokes because of the way the older engines were, and refuse to acknowledge that a 2 stroke can do just as well, or if you want to cite the "biased" article, even better! OH MY! If I were an engine manufacturer, I would offer both 2 and 4 strokes so if someone was bound and determined to have a heavy "more dependable, fuel efficent, quieter, more environmentally friendly engine" I could accommodate them. All engines pollute! The new generation 2 strokes are no worse polluter than any of the other 4 strokes. <br /><br />JMHO. <br /><br />Mark

 

[ivar]

Re: 2 stroke or 4 stroke?

Forktail,<br />All four snowmobile manuf's have 4-stroke sleds for this season. But it would be a stretch to call them lightweight , weighing up to 100lbs more than a comparable 2-stroke. And only Yamaha have a "performance" 4-stroke , the RX1 (using a modified R-1 bike engine. The others: Arctic cat 660cc triple-55hp (it was 45 last year) , Polaris 780cc twin-48hp , Ski-doo 1000cc v-twin-80hp.<br /><br />DFI still has a way to go before they can put it in a snowmobile , mainly because current DFI systems cant handle the high rpms required (8000 rpm or so) <br />Bombardier, though, have a "hybrid" engine called SDI - Semi direct injection , where fuel is injected into the transfer ports , their 800 twin is putting out around 140hp , with fuel consumption and emissions better than a conventional 2-stroke but not as good as a true "DFI" <br /><br />In outboards, I think both 2- and 4-stroke have their place. I like both my Yamaha F40 with its low noise and fuel consumption , and my good 'ol Yamaha Pro60 2-stroke with its strong midrange acceleration , simplicity and dependability

 

[P.V.]

Re: 2 stroke or 4 stroke?

Boys, boys, boys., Please note, I dids not call the artical B.S.. I said it is bias'd towards 2-strokes and against 4-strokes !! Another "engineer" could read the data (BTW, who's data was that ??) and interpert it differently. No ?? I read a few car magizines monthly and they always say that the car that stops 3 feet shorter, acccelerates .6 seconds faster etc.. is the better car !! Well, yes and no !!! <br />If you are one who lives by the numbers, then I gueas the DFI engines is better. The numbers prove it !! That doesn't make me wrong for believing that the four stroke is better. Just different. And if you believe that the DFI is the way to go, then just buy it!! It doesn't make me stupid 'cause I choose to go with the "wrong" engine. Oh, the author was Ralph Lambercht (sic) and he's written many articles for Boat Dealer magizine and other "inside" periodicals.

 

[Forktail]

Re: 2 stroke or 4 stroke?

ivar, I did not call 4-stroke snowmobiles lightweight. You totally missed my point. <br /><br />I said, "...even the lightweight snowmobile market is going 4-stroke."<br /><br />The snowmobile market demands lightweight products. Always has and always will because heavy things sink in snow. The outboard market isn't so fussy with weight. My point was that even in a "lightweight snowmobile market" the manufacturers are trending toward the 4-strokes over DFI 2-strokes. That says a lot. All four snowmobile manufacturers are trending toward 4-stroke technology, not DFI 2-strokes. Only Bombardier (Ski-doo) has somewhat entered the DFI market with a semi-direct injection system that uses multiple injectors which inject fuel into the intake transfer ports. Hardly "direct injection". Adding to my point is the analogy that this trend is similar to what's happening in the outboard industry. Big worldwide manufacturers like Suzuki, Yamaha, and Honda are putting their efforts into 4-stroke technology, not DFI 2-strokes. And apparently the market is right with them.<br /><br />A little off track from outboards, but Yamaha's RX-1 snowmobile is a 4-stroke, 4-cylinder, 998 cc, 145 hp engine. It has dry sump technology among a bunch of other things. The entire sled, skis, track, and all, weighs 560 lbs. Yamaha's most powerfull lightweight mountain sled, the SX Viper, is a 2-stroke. 3-cylinder 700 cc. It produces about 130 hp. It weighs 515 lbs.<br /><br />Obviously lightweight and powerfull 4-stroke technology is here. And my point is that the manufacturers seem to think it has a brighter outlook than the DFI 2-strokes. Otherwise, we would be seeing a phase out of 4-strokes and a rush by the manufacturers to produce DFI 2's. That's just not happening, not in the outboard industry, not in the snowmobile industry, and not in any industry.<br /><br />I love my 2-stroke outboards too, but all my new purchases have been, and will continue to be 4-strokes. I find them better in every way....for me.