2 stroke or 4 stroke?

[Beernutz]

Re: 2 stroke or 4 stroke?

Why is it that, in every one of these debates, it's the 4-stroke enthusiasts who are always so rabid in their efforts to convince the rest of that their choice is so much better than ours?<br /><br />Does misery love company? Have these folks found that the product which they sunk so much money into is no better, or perhaps worse than what they had, and refuse to admit it? I know several people who had bought 4-strokes, and have already gone back to 2-strokes.<br /><br />Father Time is the only one who will win this argument. As long the debate is so hot, no-one is likely to conceed. It's a matter of preference, unless the EPA tips the scales. And what makes them so smart, all of a sudden?

 

[Jacques321]

Re: 2 stroke or 4 stroke?

Dude,<br /><br />Lighten up, it's just a debate !<br /><br />We(4-stroke owners)just can't help sharing our joy about buying an OB that works well,is quiet doesn't stink and doesn't cost a fortune in gas.<br /><br />How would you feel?

 

[Beernutz]

Re: 2 stroke or 4 stroke?

Thanx for the enlightenment.<br /><br />I'll stick with my 2-stroke. Love the smell of burnt oil, and I have had a 75% hearing loss since age 5. What noise?<br /><br />Don't remember ever trolling for 8 hrs at 500 RPM, either. Usually 1400-1800, and at the end of a long day, when I pick up my toys to head home, she never stumbles when I roll on the throttle.<br /><br />Guess I'm just not gettin' the message.

 

[Forktail]

Re: 2 stroke or 4 stroke?

"Why is it that, in every one of these debates, it's the 4-stroke enthusiasts who are always so rabid in their efforts to convince the rest of that their choice is so much better than ours?<br /><br />First Beernutz, this thread is hardly a debate, and second your statement could be taken somewhat hypocritically. <br /> <br />But maybe its because some of the smoke breathing and hard hearing 2-stroke owners fail to acknowledge the continued success of the 4-stroke. After all, the manufacturers aren't jumping to develop complete lines of DFI outboards. Why is that? They aren't trying to phase out all those terrible 4-strokes you mention. Why is that? Instead they are jumping to develop complete lines of 4-strokes with newer lightweight technology and performance. They are, however, phasing out the 2-strokes. And they are certainly not diving into the DFI world. The new engines produced this year by the leaders were 4-strokes, not DFI's. My Merc dealer says the Optimax is going away to be replaced by 4-strokes. My Yamaha dealer, the largest in the country won't even carry a DFI unless you special order. And OMC's (BombB's) FICHT? Well.....there's an outboard I'm willing to depend my life on 100 miles offshore of Kodiak Island. <br /><br />Or maybe its because most 4-stroke owners have prior experience with 2-strokes, and they find it hard to believe that someone like you would actually prefer a 2-stroke to a 4-stroke. After all, liking the smell of burnt oil and having a hearing loss are hardly good reasons to have one. Racing and lightweight concerns....maybe.<br /><br />"Does misery love company? Have these folks found that the product which they sunk so much money into is no better, or perhaps worse than what they had, and refuse to admit it? I know several people who had bought 4-strokes, and have already gone back to 2-strokes."<br /><br />Yea, we really miss our reliable FICHTs and Optimax's. Wish we hadn't spent the extra for the EFI 4-strokes. We miss our Pinto's and Vega's too. These new Camary's are the worst. And it seems like those "several people" you know were right. After all, the market shows no indication that people want 4-stroke outboards. I guess that's why Yamaha, Honda, and Suzuki are going bankrupt and OMC got rich. Gosh, I'd just kill to trade in my 4-strokes for 2-strokes. None of my 4's run, they stink, they're noisey, and they break down constantly. They don't start instantly and never idle worth a crap. They're so heavy and gutless that my boats are worthless now. Resale will be horrible. Oh what I would do for a 2-stroke.<br /><br />"Father Time is the only one who will win this argument. As long the debate is so hot, no-one is likely to conceed. It's a matter of preference, unless the EPA tips the scales. And what makes them so smart, all of a sudden?"<br /><br />Father Time? Have the 4-strokes not proven themselves? Are the manufacturers producing 4-strokes that consumers don't want? Are we being force fed 4-strokes? Or could it be that they work very well and most people want them? And if you haven't noticed, the EPA doesn't have to be smart to dictate what the manufacturers do, they just have to be the EPA.<br /><br />Give me a break. 2-strokes are great outboards, but they hold nothing above a 4-stroke.<br /><br />Your right about one thing....you not getting the message.

 

[Beernutz]

Re: 2 stroke or 4 stroke?

Wow, struck a nerve. Sounding more like a crusade, all the time.<br /><br />Why???<br /><br />OK, you guys win. Let's assume that the EPA eliminates 2-strokes by some emissions standard. Then, as tests seem to indicate, they learn that 4-strokes are no better. If the same standard applies, the 4-strokes are banned, too. You've been "hoist by your own petard".<br /><br />Keep it up. There'll be nothing left.

 

[ob]

Re: 2 stroke or 4 stroke?

2 stroke or 4 stroke ? The only thing I have trouble swallowing is that they're all grossly overpriced for what you get for your hard earned dollar.Like some of the oldtimers mentioned, the willingness for people to pay these close to insane prices for some of these motors has dictated the market for everyone.In the not so far future going fishing in any size power boat will become a rich mans hobby.A 250 yammer good for nothing without a boat to put it on or a short cab nissan pick-up for about the same price.....What's wrong with this picture?Oh well.

 

[P.V.]

Re: 2 stroke or 4 stroke?

Hi ! I'm back !!!! Just thought I'd throw some more fuel on the fire ! I think we should look even further into the future. Our sport/livelyhood is gunna continue to go "forward", and in a few years we are all gunna wake up and find that the "do=gooders" and political ya-hoo's have legistlated us off the water and out of the fishing/boating industry. We won't be able to "harm" or "murder" the poor little fishys nor will we be able to continue to pollute waterways with whatever motor we will then have. If it ain't electric, it ain't on the water. We won't have fiberglass hulls or ones made of anything else that is not enviromentaly friendly. It isn't too far fetched to see that people looking out for us( because we can't ) will royaly screw us with their own agenda and ours be ****ed. Oh, yea!! I do like 2-strokes, really I do .

 

[BillP]

Re: 2 stroke or 4 stroke?

Wow Forktail...you sound kinda hostile. I don't think anyone is saying 4 strokes are bad here. My input is they just don't seem to be that much better. I've got my own reasons...like too many parts, weight and price. I only have approx 300-350 hrs on my 50 4S so it isn't a big deal that it still runs fine. My worst 2 stroke burned a piston at 1000 hrs and that due mostly to my disregard of decarbonizing. <br /><br />I have no issues with how my 2 strokes have ever run (maybe experience counts). Reading about the exhaust fumes, hey I switched to synthetic oil and the smoke all but went away on my non vro 3 cyl Johnson. How many 2 stroke complainers tried this or even know to do it? Idling all day? The only time I had issues was when the thermostat was removed on a 140 Johnson. I grew up in a 2 stroke omc family and reliability was usually high with the OMCs. The 2 stroke Mercs were another story and the worst engines in history to me. It took 40 years before I decided to try the Mariner 50 4S just because of my 60s experiences with merc. Hey, did all you 2 stroke haters happen to own mercs <grin>? <br /><br />Your comment about most 4 stroke buyers being previous 2 stroke owners...woweeee. All that means is they got sucked in like me. <br /><br />On land based vehicles...yamaha came out with the 4 stroke motocross. When it first came out it was the rage...now I'm seeing them less and less. Environmental stuff pushed 4 stroke into the lime lite, nothing else. The still can't match 2 strokes for performance. <br /><br />Last but not least, we spend big bucks on a boat rig and worry about fuel costs?...and buy a big rig to trailer with? I'd say someone is buying beyond their pockets.

 

[Forktail]

Re: 2 stroke or 4 stroke?

Beernutz, in your effort to keep hypocricy alive, you have totally missed (or at least avoided) the point.<br /><br />The market demand for 4-strokes has little to do with the EPA. After all, modern DFI 2-strokes equal or surpass emission standards too. So why doesn't everyone buy them? The EPA doesn't care if its a 2-stroke, 4-stroke, or a back-stroke. As long as the engine meets emission standards, it flies.<br /><br />The point is that most people want 4-strokes. The point is that most of the big outboard manufacturers are advancing and producing 4-strokes, not 2-stroke DFI's. The point is, regardless of the EPA, most consumers still want the features of a 4-stroke. The point is that Honda doesn't give a rip about 2-stroke DFI's. Suzuki doesn't give a rip about 2-stroke DFI's, and Yamaha barely gives a rip about them too. Merc and BombB are struggling with their 2-stroke DFI's and adding more and more 4-strokes to their line every year.<br /><br />People don't just buy 4-strokes because they meet EPA regs. Heck I don't even have emission regulations where I live. But I own and will continue to own 4-strokes because of all the reasons everyone else likes them. Who cares about EPA emissions? Most of us care more about owning the most pleasurable outboard possible.<br /><br />The outboard manufacturers have found a way to make 4-strokes do everything a 2-stroke will do, and do it so consumers want more of it. <br /><br />"hoist by your own petard". Keep it up. There'll be nothing left.<br /><br />Hardly. I'm one of the biggest advocates of 2-strokes you will find. I write Congress, I lobby my Representatives, and I slam the greenies. I'm a member of the Blue Ribbon Coalition. How about you? I love my 2-stroke ski-doo, my Detroit diesel, my chainsaw, lawnmower, outboards, 4-wheelers, and gas powered blender. I advocate 4-stroke outboards because they make my 2-stroke outboards play 2nd fiddle. If you owned one, you would know what I mean.

 

[sloopy]

Re: 2 stroke or 4 stroke?

gas powered blender'<br /><br />thats a little to far

 

[durk187]

Re: 2 stroke or 4 stroke?

 

[Beernutz]

Re: 2 stroke or 4 stroke?

"Everyone else likes them"???<br /><br />Give it a rest. This is exactly the kind of rabid loyalty that I referred to in my initial post. Thank you for hammering home the point.<br /><br />This is great! I never considered myself to be all that "quotable".<br /><br />Didn't I already throw in the towel?

 

[Lugnut36]

Re: 2 stroke or 4 stroke?

I think they should just start using those helicopter turbine engines, would be fun to play with the afterburner but would be **** for the guy behind you at the dock!<br /><br />No serious i got a kick out of that turbine engine jet powered boat i seen online man that was sweet... Anyone else see it>?

 

[dmessy]

Re: 2 stroke or 4 stroke?

When's the Wankle designed rotary engine going to be throw into the mix? Few moving parts, fuel efficient, high revs, lightweight...those Maxda RX7s run forever

 

[Forktail]

Re: 2 stroke or 4 stroke?

You mean you don't have a 2-stroke blender? You're missing out. Try www.cabelas.com. They make excellent margaritas. Mine smokes like a chimney on 16:1, but after a few who cares. <br /><br />Rabid loyalty? Hypocricy is alive again.<br /><br />My point Beernutz (which you missed again, so I'll say it again), was that I own 4-strokes because of the same reasons everyone else does. And contrary to you, it's not because they meet EPA standards (2-stroke DFI's meet EPA standards too). It's because of the instant, stall-free starts in any temperature, the quiet, endless low rpm idles, the smooth vibration free power, the fussless durability and reliability of a 4-stroke, the absence of buying, adding, and burning 2-stroke oil, the pressurized oil lubrication system, the proven EFI fuel systems, fuel economy, resale/upgrade value, and the plain fact they are more enjoyable to own and operate. <br /><br />You can blame the fact that so many people own 4-strokes on the EPA, but in reality boaters own them because they want to. Otherwise they'd have DFI 2-strokes....right? And all the manufacturers would be racing to produce DFI 2-strokes....right?<br /><br />Like I said, I love 2-strokes too. Almost as much as you Beernutz. But just what exactly is so bad about a 4-stroke outboard? And why, when you could have a 4-stroke outboard, would you possilbly want a 2-stroke? Because I can only think of three instances: You can't afford one, your boat can't handle a little extra weight, or you race. On the other hand I can think of many reasons why you might want a 4-stroke over a 2-stroke. Here's a clue....EPA emissions isn't one of them. <br /><br />Luckily we have a choice and you can buy a 2-stroke if you want. I'm stick'n with my 4's. They're sweet.

 

[Jacques321]

Re: 2 stroke or 4 stroke?

Hey Beernutz,<br /><br />Go back to your beer and nuts and burnt oil...<br /><br />You can't win this one ...4 strokes RULE!!!!

 

[JB]

Re: 2 stroke or 4 stroke?

Hi, Guys. <br /><br />If you look at the whole field of outboards, you will find that almost all 2 strokes under 50hp are carbed, and that almost all 4 strokes are under 150hp. That appears to me to give both 4 strokes and DFI 2 strokes ("Modern 2 strokes") ranges of hp where they are best on paper.<br /><br />On the boat, it is a matter of the owner's priorities. What is on paper is irrelevant. I very much prefer 4 strokes, but I am not full of lust for power and speed and I am only interested in engines under 100hp.<br /><br />All of my other points have already been offered.

 

[Beernutz]

Re: 2 stroke or 4 stroke?

Forktail, your arrogance amuses me. I thought I recognized your style. You're "Mr. Know-it-All" from the "Rocky & Bullwinkle Show"!<br /><br />Who said I love 2-strokes? Maybe I'm just some po' southern boy who can't afford to gamble all that green on hype. Or maybe it's because where you live, your motor only sees the water for a few (comparitively speaking) hours each year. Has the snow melted yet? As such, it's highly unlikely that you will ever experience a catastrophic timing belt failure, especially with all that spare time for maintenance. My motor, on the other hand, gets extensive use several times a week on a year-round basis. That increases the odds significantly, so it's something I gotta consider. Sure, my 2-stroke could suffer a mechanical failure, but none of them have and the liklihood is decreased, consistent with the reduction in number of critical moving parts.<br /><br />You cool your motor with clean, clear, fresh water. All we got is 85 degree saltwater laden with tons of sand to pump thru her. Even the humid air these things breathe is full of sand and Sodium Chloride. I'm no engineer, but I believe these elements have to make a difference, so Father Time and I are just waiting to see. I haven't noticed where Honda designed the Accord or Civic engines to withstand such abuse. I know my 2-stroke can take it, though.<br /><br />And just wait'll one of your 4-strokes gets submerged. I can have my 2-stroke running again within a couple of hours. Your entire season will be over.<br /><br />Forky, has it occurred to you that environmentalists, by and thru the EPA, might be employing one of the oldest military strategies in the book: "divide & conquer"? By the looks of this thread, some of us are going for it, hook, line, & sinker. I got a better defense strategy: live & let live. How 'bout: "different strokes for different folks"? You keep bashing our gas powered blenders, and we'll all be powering our boats with the backstroke. I simply don't want to lose the option just yet.<br /><br />BTW, I'm still struggling with with the concept of hypocracy arising out of a couple of questions and a statement of my own current personal preference. Maybe we're just a little slower down here, so I'll keep working on it. Nah, it ain't worth it. <br /><br />Even with my hearing loss, the noise level of 2-strokes seems no higher than 4-strokes going by my dock at anything other than idle speed. The pitch is the only difference. But, then, maybe y'all with 20/20 hearing aren't as discerning. I wouldn't know, nor would you.<br /><br />Adios, thread!

 

[dmessy]

Re: 2 stroke or 4 stroke?

2 Stroke vs. 4 stroke? Doesn't really make much of a difference. Point is, both are fossile fueled powered engines. Both have thier own good and bad points. Have you noticed that ALL designers are looking towards alternative power sources such as electric, hybrid, solar, hydrogen,etc.?<br />The "treehuggers" have a serious point concerning what we are dumping into our air and water supply. Our natural resorces are limited.<br />Can ya'll imagine our nation if we did not have to reley on oil? Would we be spending as much time or energy in the mideast? Don't believe so. Gas prices? who would care?<br />My point is that the internal combustion engine as we know it today probably won't even be around in the next decade or so. Buy whichever brand motor you like, keep it mantained and running well as it will soon become a collectors item anyway.

 

[Jacques321]

Re: 2 stroke or 4 stroke?

Dmessy,<br /><br />Agreed, both have their advantages and disadvantages, but in the shortrun I still give the nod to 4-strokes, and I think the internal combustion engine will be around for longer than the next decade or so. <br />I'd estimate at the very least another 20-30 years or so before it starts getting phased out to eventually become a collector's item.