2 stroke or 4 stroke?

[Forktail]

Re: 2 stroke or 4 stroke?

Beernutz, why so thick? <br /><br />If 4-strokes didn't meet emission standards I'd still want one over a 2-stroke that did. I don't care about EPA emissions, I care about having the most positive experience when owning an outboard. And that means a 4-stroke. At least for me. At least that's where the market is going for some odd reason.<br /><br />So you assume my motors see water for a few hours each year? Hardly Shurlock. I live in Alaska on the coast. I'm a retired engineer who now commercial fishes for halibut, cod, and salmon. Kodiak, Bearing Sea, Gulf of Alaska, Bristol Bay, Cook Inlet, etc. And when I'm not commercial fishing I operate a 4-boat guide service, which includes fly-in trips to remote fishing. No room for breakdowns here. And when I'm doing neither of those, I'm sport fishing. My boats get used every single day, hours on end, in frigid salt waters filled with glacial silt, and mud from 30-foot tides. Shallow glacial rivers with ice chunks and floating logs. If I'm not running my boats, my help is. And they're abusive. There is no better testing grounds than Alaska for equipment. If it's going to break, it will break here. 85F degree weather and a few days a week? I wish.<br /><br />Submerging a 2-stroke.....now there's a reason to have one.<br /><br />This will be the 3rd time now that Beernutz has left this thread. Hmmm.<br /><br />One last time. I love 2-strokes. But I prefer a 4-stroke outboard on my boat.

 

[Forktail]

Re: 2 stroke or 4 stroke?

I agree with you JB. But don't forget that 4-strokes range from 2 hp to 225 hp. And the DFI's these guys are talking about are found only of a few select models.

 

[Beernutz]

Re: 2 stroke or 4 stroke?

My appologies, Forky. Somewhere I got the impression you were located in Wisconsin, or some such. Unlike you, sometimes I'm wrong.<br /><br />Now I really mean it! When were the other 2?

 

[Forktail]

Re: 2 stroke or 4 stroke?

1. "Didn't I already throw in the towel?"<br /><br />2. "OK, you guys win."<br /><br />3. "Adios, thread!"<br /><br />4. "Now I really mean it! When were the other 2?"<br /><br />And I don't think you ever did get it.

 

[my new fishmaster]

Re: 2 stroke or 4 stroke?

There is no debate I will trade my96 75hp force by mercury for a 90 hp honda and come up with $1000. More like $4000 but who is counting.

 

[BillP]

Re: 2 stroke or 4 stroke?

forktail,<br />Since you are a commercial guy and put lots of hrs on 4 stroke engines...does this mean you change crankcase oil about once every 10 days and adjust the valves once a month? I calculate this to about 6 hrs a month for service x 12 months = 72 hrs a year you are working additional maintenance per engine? If using $40hr this is $2880 a year more maintenance than 2 strokes? All other maintenance should be about the same. <br /><br />Besides smooth running from cold weather (I can understand that being a big problem in Alaska)are you fishing more to make up maintenance with the 4 stroke? Or do you figure the fuel costs will buffer this? How much fuel are you using per month and how many hours per engine? What type 2 stroke were you using commercially? <br /><br />I know 2000 hard hrs was real for omc commercial 2 strokes and HEARD of 2500 hr 4 stokes still going...but commercial guys here are not using 4 strokes in a big way yet so there is little info on this. What are you finding in major overhaul hours (smoh)for 4 strokes? How many hours logged? I'm interested in hard data to make calculated decisions.<br /><br />BillP.

 

[Forktail]

Re: 2 stroke or 4 stroke?

$2880 a year for 4-stroke maintenance? What the heck are you talking about??<br /><br />No I don't change the oil every 10 days or adjust valves every month. I certainly don't pay $40 an hour to have someone do these simple tasks. These motors are used commercially, not for weekend family fishing trips. These outboards are basically abused. Many of them are used in remote locations where maintenance isn't possible, and repairs, unless absolutely necessary, are left alone. The 4-strokes have dealt with this abuse very well.<br /><br />Surely you aren't implying that 4-stroke maintenance, operating, and downtime costs exceed those of 2-strokes? The last Optimax I tried spent almost as much time in the shop as my last FICHT. <br /><br />Commercially I use the Yamaha 4-stroke tiller F115's. Valve clearance inspection/adjustment is every 2 years/400 hours. But I've never adjusted them. And it takes very little time to check them. These gems are flawless. The timing belt gets an annual inspection and the oil might get changed every two months if lucky. Yamaha recommends the oil be changed every 6 months/100 hours and the filter every 1 year/200 hours. Being tillers, its hard to know how many hours are on them. I'm guessing 600-800 per year. I'm expecting a 4-5 year life, on extended maintenance intervals. Love that fresh-water flush feature.<br /><br />In comparison to the 2-stroke Yamaha Enduro's that I used to run on these boats (which were excellent outboards), I save money and fuss in oil expense (mixed gas on the Enduro), fuel expense (and the F115 is bigger), I get better startups in the dangerous surf, I don't get the vibration and noise, and I can idle against the tide for hours on end. I also don't have to clean carbs, change fouled plugs, and pull chokes. I also believe the 4's are living a longer and more durable life, and will bring a better value at trade-in time.<br /><br />I run 50 hp 4-stroke tiller Yamahas on my river boats. Some of them are 5 years old. These outboards back-troll at idle for hours on end all summer long. They use very little fuel and have required little preventative maintenance and zero repair. <br /><br />In comparison to the 40 hp 2-strokes I did run and replaced every two years, the 50-4's are superior. My clients don't complain about the fumes, I can talk over the motor, I save fuel costs, I save oil costs, and they are generally more of a pleasure to own.<br /><br />In the mid 80's I began replacing all of my 2-stroke 15hp small trolling motors with 4-stroke High-Thrust Yamaha 9.9's. Best thing I could've ever done. We still run the original one I purchased, day after day. Of all my motors, these get the least maintenance. Just bi-annual oil changes and visuals. I would guess they run 500-600 hours per year. It would be an insult to guess how many hours are on my original, untouched 9.9. Again fuel expenses are down, and virtually zero repairs. What a pleasure to troll with.<br /><br />I did run twin counter-rotating Yamaha 150 OX66 Salts on my custom made 30' USCOLA aluminum. They were tired after about 2000 hours and I had to replace one powerhead and a lower unit. They were great in their day. This year they were upgraded with twin 200 4-strokes. No comparison. Better on fuel, no injection oil, better idles and trolls, better starting, quieter, smoother, and pure pleasure. I certainly feel safer 100 miles off shore. I'm expecting to double the 2000 hour life of the 2-strokes. Being new, the jury is still out on them but I anticipate pure happiness.<br /><br />Bill, I'm not one for keeping logs of hours on outboards or tracking exact fuel consumption. It's very obvious to me that the 4's live longer lives, run on less fuel, and are more of a pleasure to own. In fact even if they did somehow cost more to operate, I'd still own them. They're sweet.

 

[BillP]

Re: 2 stroke or 4 stroke?

Forktail,<br />The commercial guys I know usually put 8-10 hrs a day on their rigs. Based on my Mariner specs to change oil every 100 hrs and 300 hrs for the valve adjusting, that puts oil changes at approx 10 days and valve adjusting on top of that to get 6 hrs a month for scheduled maintenance (above scheduled maintenance for a 2 stroke). That is also the longest sentence I've ever written. <br /><br />I also figure time working on an engine for business is time at work or time lost fishing. I work on mine for free but many pleasure boaters have this stuff done at the dealer. $40 hr is real cheap around here for labor at a decent outboard shop...$65-$75 is normal. Anyway, that's where I got the $2800 for oil/valve maintenance...it's loose but in the park. I personally would add that to my business expenses for the tax man. <br /><br />No, I'm not implying a 2 stroke costs less but oil changes and valve adjustments don't happen with them. It is extra stuff for a 4 stroke that I don't like to do. Even though my time is free I'd rather be boating vs maintaining. <br /><br />Your experience with 2 strokes being in the shop all the time is exactly opposite mine. I've been running mostly OMC since the 60s with a few mixed brands in between. I can add that I lived aboard (sailboats)for 10 yrs and berthed in two marinas that were OMC and Merc franchises. I can without hesitation tell you that for every OMC towed in there were at least 10 mercs...during those years there were also 10x less mercs around. That is no hipe...do the math but that is the reason I didn't buy mercs. OMC commercial rigs were the best around and gave flawless runs thoughout their life...so have most of my domestic OMCs but the lastest of those is an early 90s 65hp commercial. The late 90s I think went down the tube. <br /><br />There are always exceptions but 95% of all my 2 strokes were never down for any reason other than seals, gear oil, spark plugs, etc. With a few exceptions, every motor I've owned has had the pixx run out of it well past the new stage and most over a 1000 hrs with no running or repair issues. <br /><br />Anyway, thanks for the info on the 4 strokes. I got a feeling that cold Alaska water makes some real pains for running 2 strokes too. <br /><br />The lastest update today from my merc mechanic (I still can't believe I own a yamaha badged merc product)is a fleet of rental 25hp 4s Hondas he takes care of. About 3500hrs each and oil is only changed ...virtually no maintenance on those engines since new and still running great. They are on 20' pontoon boats and run full bore most of the time. Using synthetic all around.

 

[Ficht Guy]

Re: 2 stroke or 4 stroke?

Paul,<br /><br /> I have a SuperSport 160 (2001). If you have any questions regarding the boat and power email me at truckguygmc23@yahoo.com