Have ya wondered what fogging oil is made of? IVE BEEN CHECKING, Do Ya wanna know??

[dan t.]

Re: Have ya wondered what fogging oil is made of? IVE BEEN CHECKING, Do Ya wanna know

I agree with DonHof 100% I have been a mechanic for close to 40 years and I dont believe in or use any cleaners, stabilizers or additives. the only thing I do is pull the fuel line on the outboard and run the carb dry. It is very wet around here and I have never had a problem with anything

 

[roscoe]

Re: Have ya wondered what fogging oil is made of? IVE BEEN CHECKING, Do Ya wanna know

Ok this might be a stupid question but here goes...why winterized your motor for the winter when you can just put the muffs on every month or two and run the motor??

Thats pretty hard to do when the outside temps are -15*F or colder, and the garden hose freezes solid before the water can make it out the end.

"winterizing" is really "long term storage"

Not all motors are installed, or able to be run.

 

[roscoe]

Re: Have ya wondered what fogging oil is made of? IVE BEEN CHECKING, Do Ya wanna know

Yep I totally didn't think about sub zero temps...winter to me is maybe a low of 32 here and there...lol

Heck, we had 29* here 2.5 weeks ago. (Oct 2nd)

 

[perchin]

Re: Have ya wondered what fogging oil is made of? IVE BEEN CHECKING, Do Ya wanna know

I agree with DonHof 100% I have been a mechanic for close to 40 years and I dont believe in or use any cleaners, stabilizers or additives. the only thing I do is pull the fuel line on the outboard and run the carb dry. It is very wet around here and I have never had a problem with anything

I also agree..... it seems all mechanics I talk to have this same opinion.

When I summerize the sleds, I just empty the tanks at the petcock, then run the sled dry of fuel.

When we winterize the lawn tractor and boat its the same method... I also don't bad gas.. or any additives.

 

[8hygro]

Re: Have ya wondered what fogging oil is made of? IVE BEEN CHECKING, Do Ya wanna know

In temps below freezing you do not have humidity and condensation concerns. Oscilating temps near freezing I would prefer starting the engine up and running for oil circulation occasionally.

There is a large difference in two stroke oils usually reflected in price. Use a quality pre-mix before storage if you do not other times. I really like the yamaha products and availability is decent for the average guy. Thier is some very high quality two stroke oils in the motorcycle arena that may be easier to access. If possible I would run an unblended fuel.

Typical seasonal fogging is hugely overated and almost always ill performed. If performed correctly for long term storage protection you would likely want a mechanic to de-winterize it. Marvel Mystery oil works as good as anything if your buying over the counter.

8hygro

"Originally Posted by paultjohnson"
HMMMM....Living in Mn I know about freezing temps.. IMO there is a huge issue with condensation Look at your car windows frost comes and goes Gotta scrape the frost off the outside of your windows and defroster to keep the inside clear. The drive way will be all frosty in the morning ,the sun comes up and melts it off Sun goes down and and everything frosts over again. A freezer that stays at 0 deg 24/7 will frost up if its not frost free.
Starting it up- and running an engine is gonna add condensation the whole program and the cold start does the most wear on an engine. I respectfully disagree Once again IMHO ...


As referenced...there will be variables one should become educated too. Effort into proper storage techniques and equipment placement are important to understand. Dewpoints and moisture barriers play into that. You cant fix ignorance...I dont care how much fogging you perform. I have not seen one mention of the change of materials in cylinder and piston rings over the years and those parts were what "fogging" was specifically targeting. Face it...people just fall for the whole "engine rebuild in a can drivel". It says alot.

8hygro

 

[paultjohnson]

Re: Have ya wondered what fogging oil is made of? IVE BEEN CHECKING, Do Ya wanna know

"Originally Posted by paultjohnson"
HMMMM....Living in Mn I know about freezing temps.. IMO there is a huge issue with condensation Look at your car windows frost comes and goes Gotta scrape the frost off the outside of your windows and defroster to keep the inside clear. The drive way will be all frosty in the morning ,the sun comes up and melts it off Sun goes down and and everything frosts over again. A freezer that stays at 0 deg 24/7 will frost up if its not frost free.
Starting it up- and running an engine is gonna add condensation the whole program and the cold start does the most wear on an engine. I respectfully disagree Once again IMHO ...


As referenced...there will be variables one should become educated too. Effort into proper storage techniques and equipment placement are important to understand. Dewpoints and moisture barriers play into that. You cant fix ignorance...I dont care how much fogging you perform. I have not seen one mention of the change of materials in cylinder and piston rings over the years and those parts were what "fogging" was specifically targeting. Face it...people just fall for the whole "engine rebuild in a can drivel". It says alot.

8hygro

Im sure you have some facts, experiences or professional knowledge to back your thoughts up with. Tho I didnt see any listed .
You cant fix ignorance ? who are you refering to?
You state that people just fall for the whole : engine overhaul in a can drivel:
It says alot...
Whats it say ? And who does it say it about ?

 

[8hygro]

Re: Have ya wondered what fogging oil is made of? IVE BEEN CHECKING, Do Ya wanna know

Oh...my framed certificates on the wall, or maybe my 1099's? I have been wrenching for a living nearly 35 years. Nearly half of that time has been in a R&D capacity for several Japanese oem's. Since the oem's embracing of the 4-strokes much of my work has been in the offroad competition side.

When you start trying to differentiate between components, fuels, oils, etc. one of the most difficult and time consuming aspects is creating a standardized base with which to draw worthwhile empiracal data or testing from. The average guy simply has no clue or chance at establishing this. I know, I deal with them everday even ones that make a living in the very industry. Not a slam just a fact. Take this fuel debate raging about blended fuels on these forums. The variables in this fuel going from pump to pump, city to city, state to state, season to season, are HUGE. That variable is the single largest problem facing the end user. How about the distillation curve, end point etc. of said fuel? What happens when the fuel does not atomize and even burn completely? how about when it displaces oil in a convential 2-cycle design? Modern cylinder coatings and ring faces are very hard and quite durable in any climate. How about the neutered 4-cycle oils the manufactures are forced to spec to the end user? Attempt to do any real world controlled testing and the issues I mentioned will hit you like a ton of bricks.

Frankly, I pay no attention to what somone may list as thier "background". I will figure them out soon enough based on what I know to be true. If people want warm and fuzzy they can buy a teddy bear.

8hygro

 

[109jb]

Re: Have ya wondered what fogging oil is made of? IVE BEEN CHECKING, Do Ya wanna know

Oh...my framed certificates on the wall, or maybe my 1099's? I have been wrenching for a living nearly 35 years. Nearly half of that time has been in a R&D capacity for several Japanese oem's. Since the oem's embracing of the 4-strokes much of my work has been in the offroad competition side.

When you start trying to differentiate between components, fuels, oils, etc. one of the most difficult and time consuming aspects is creating a standardized base with which to draw worthwhile empiracal data or testing from. The average guy simply has no clue or chance at establishing this. I know, I deal with them everday even ones that make a living in the very industry. Not a slam just a fact. Take this fuel debate raging about blended fuels on these forums. The variables in this fuel going from pump to pump, city to city, state to state, season to season, are HUGE. That variable is the single largest problem facing the end user. How about the distillation curve, end point etc. of said fuel? What happens when the fuel does not atomize and even burn completely? how about when it displaces oil in a convential 2-cycle design? Modern cylinder coatings and ring faces are very hard and quite durable in any climate. How about the neutered 4-cycle oils the manufactures are forced to spec to the end user? Attempt to do any real world controlled testing and the issues I mentioned will hit you like a ton of bricks.

Frankly, I pay no attention to what somone may list as thier "background". I will figure them out soon enough based on what I know to be true. If people want warm and fuzzy they can buy a teddy bear.

8hygro

A lot of words that really say nothing that makes any sense.

Previously you mentioned fogging as an "engine rebuild in a can". Who said anything like that. Fogging is preventative maintenance for long term storage. That's what the maintenance manuals say and that's why I do it. I don't fog to "rebuild" an engine.


What about the FACT that ALL of the maintenance manuals for the 2 stroke engines I have say to fog the engine for long term storage. All mine are carbureted or open loop EFI, so I can't say for the newer clean burn 2-strokes but it isn't that one or two say to fog, but all of them say to do it and I have OEM maintenance manuals for all of my stuff. Are you saying that the manufacturers are wrong and that we shouldn't fog the engines when the OEM says to? So you are smarter than the OEM manufacturers of the equipment I own?? Unlike others, I really don't give a hoot what you have done in the past, or what your personal beliefs are. Unless you are in fact an OEM manufacturer of something I own, I will defer to what the OEM says. If the OEM comes out with a bulletin or something saying not to fog then I won't, but for all my stuff the OEM says fog it.

 

[8hygro]

Re: Have ya wondered what fogging oil is made of? IVE BEEN CHECKING, Do Ya wanna know

You cant fix ignorance ? who are you refering to?

When you have a "for profit" corporation comprised of a group of investors who's sole motivation is a return on investment (ROI), you will get a company direction that is steered to doing just that...making a profit.

Now take the "political climate" which is the ruling authority of the populous which is your market. When that ruling authority continually banters against your product and even threatens to ban it based solely on bunk science, emotion and ignorance you have cause for concern of your investors. That concern steers R&D, marketing, etc. As you are in business to make money not play roulette.

This time take the populous, you know the ones who voted for the said ruling authority based on bunk science, emotion and ignorance. You know the ones, that now are screaming at the manufacturers because they have to replace thier $1500 carbs on thier new eco friendly 4-cycle. Put aside the fact those carbs went bad because of the "ruling authorities" environmental directives.

The manufactures in most cases have had to prepare for the recent events that have taken place to protect themselves. This stiffled certain products development and furthered others solely based on the fact there were possible uncrontrollable circumstances that would hurt ROI (ruling authority, fuel issues, public perception, ignorance, etc.). People wonder why heavier more costly and complicated 4-cycle engines came to be favored...

I think it is fair to say there is a whole lot of ignorance going on.

8hygro

 

[Bigperch]

Re: Have ya wondered what fogging oil is made of? IVE BEEN CHECKING, Do Ya wanna know

Imagine the carbon footprint!

My, oh my.
Lions and tigers and bears....



I learned a few lessons years ago on this subject storing up little 2 and 4 stroke RC aircraft engines for the off season.

ATF.
Maybe a couple drops of thinner if you think it's not getting into all the little nooks and crannies. Never had any problems... yet.
???
I ain't gonna bother with most of the winterization process. I have room on the back porch where it never freezes no matter how cold it gets. Please correct me if I"m wrong, being new to boat motors and all, preventing rust with an after use oil should be my only real concern, right? Make sure fuel tanks are empty and dry, a shot of sta bil for carb parts, and some after run oil down spark plug holes and pull the cord a few times and I should be good to go, no?
Checking gear lube is no different than irrigation gear boxes as I understand it. And just as easy to change out when needed. Is there anything I"m missing?
Thanks.

 

[8hygro]

Re: Have ya wondered what fogging oil is made of? IVE BEEN CHECKING, Do Ya wanna know

A lot of words that really say nothing that makes any sense.

8hygro...not everyone will connect the dots. Laugh

Previously you mentioned fogging as an "engine rebuild in a can". Who said anything like that.

8hygro...Badly worded. I meant the crowd that typically is falling for the standard "fogging" by a typical tech or desription on a can of over-the-counter product is that which typically falls for "rebuild-in-a-can type fixes". I stand bye it. Entire

What about the FACT that ALL of the maintenance manuals for the 2 stroke engines I have say to fog the engine for long term storage.

8hygro...Fact, unfortunately manuals are mostly worded with legaleze and practices that protect the manufacturer. This can be a topic on its own. But there is a lot of mechanical advice in manuals that is not prudent or used in the field...for a reason. Just a fact of life the oems have had to undertake to protect from liability and/or wiggle out of warranties. This arena has gotten downright slimy.

Are you saying that the manufacturers are wrong and that we shouldn't fog the engines when the OEM says to?

8hygro...No, I am saying that it is usually both done incorrectly and most often not needed. Modern engine materials, lubricants and good storage practices are sufficient. You would be way ahead of the game searching out and running a quality fuel and premix if applicable. Starting the engine up and running it lightly occasionally is very advantageous. A small carry on fuel container can be used with some ll100 or performance fuel for your final start/shutdown to purge the blended fuel from the carbs and system before storage. If you are in an extreme climate situation that will have high humidity or invasive moisture cycles bye all rights fogg. The whole point of fogging is to keep moisture from creating havoc on metal surfaces inside your engine. Manufacturers have been reacting to moisture being instituted into the fuel source (blended fuels) for a while now. A few months of storage and especially covered with some care is not nearly as worrisome as the blended fuels most are running through fuel systems.

I have not mastered the quoted reply button obviously.
8hygro

 

[8hygro]

Re: Have ya wondered what fogging oil is made of? IVE BEEN CHECKING, Do Ya wanna know

Imagine the carbon footprint!

My, oh my.
Lions and tigers and bears....



I learned a few lessons years ago on this subject storing up little 2 and 4 stroke RC aircraft engines for the off season.

ATF.
Maybe a couple drops of thinner if you think it's not getting into all the little nooks and crannies. Never had any problems... yet.
???
I ain't gonna bother with most of the winterization process. I have room on the back porch where it never freezes no matter how cold it gets. Please correct me if I"m wrong, being new to boat motors and all, preventing rust with an after use oil should be my only real concern, right? Make sure fuel tanks are empty and dry, a shot of sta bil for carb parts, and some after run oil down spark plug holes and pull the cord a few times and I should be good to go, no?
Checking gear lube is no different than irrigation gear boxes as I understand it. And just as easy to change out when needed. Is there anything I"m missing?
Thanks.

I like your aproach. You understand the concept. I also like the use of ATF as it tends to help break loose combustion deposit from cross-hatching ultimatley helping with ring seal, being it is high in detergent. Under any style roof or a well wrapped engine with a moisture barrier is a BIG deal.

8hygro

 

[skargo]

Re: Have ya wondered what fogging oil is made of? IVE BEEN CHECKING, Do Ya wanna know

I would never use ATF, as it's an abrasive. Doesn't make sense to use it where lubrication is needed, IMO.

 

[Bluestream]

Re: Have ya wondered what fogging oil is made of? IVE BEEN CHECKING, Do Ya wanna know

The Propane and Butane in fogging oil are there to keep the engine running while it is being oiled by the fogging spray. Before there was fogging oil, we use to just use a pump style oil can and pump motor oil into the carbs. That works well and is way cheaper than fogging oil, but the engine would foul and stall sooner than with fogging, but the job was done.

30 years ago, I worked for a Yamaha snowmobile/motorcycle dealer. Sleds used to run mostly 50:1 premix. Storage according to the owners manual was to run engine out of fuel, and squirt a few oz of oil in each cylinder. As the oil injected sleds became more popular we saw a trend develop. Owner would put sled into storage as before, and next season 2-3 weeks into the winter sled shows up at our door for service. Tear engine down, and bottom end bearing failure due to rust. Top end rings and cylinders are near perfect. Moisture in the air would go up the exhaust pipe and into an open exhaust port and cause rusting. The oil premix would bath the bottom end in a way that oil injection never could. This is why fogging first became popular.

Rust can form from the moisture in the air very easy. This summer I put my truck in my garage for 2 months and used my car for the summer. When I open the hood to check oil, I saw pitted rust on my belt tensioner pulley on the part exposed to the air. The belt side of the pulley was still shiny clean steel. I live nowhere near water, this rusted from the moisture in the air.

And yes, ATF is a 10W oil contains AW agents and friction modifiers designed for transmission bands, it has no place in an engine.

 

[bruceb58]

Re: Have ya wondered what fogging oil is made of? IVE BEEN CHECKING, Do Ya wanna know

I would never use ATF, as it's an abrasive. Doesn't make sense to use it where lubrication is needed, IMO.

OK..that's a new one...please explain how ATF is abrasive! Why is it used in an automatic transmission if its abrasive?

 

[109jb]

Re: Have ya wondered what fogging oil is made of? IVE BEEN CHECKING, Do Ya wanna know

Not that I'm any kind of expert on transmissions or ATF, but I have rebuilt a couple, and the way I understand it is the friction in an automatic transmission comes from the clutch plate stack, and the bands, not from the transmission fluid. "Friction modifiers" doen't mean it is abrasive. In most cases it means that friction is modified by reducing friction of the base oil.

Not that I like wikipedia all that much, but here is what they saY:

"Lubricants may contain additives known as friction modifiers that chemically bind to metal surfaces to reduce surface friction even when there is insufficient bulk lubricant present for hydrodynamic lubrication, e.g. protecting the valve train in a car engine at startup."

Automatic transmission fluid is "slippery" to allow smooth engagement of the clutch packs and prevent the transmission from having a jerky operation noticeable during shifts. When transmission fluid gets to the "burnt" stage like from overheating it loses some of its "slipperyness" and the shifts become more abrupt or "jerky". Also, ATF is specified for many 4wd transfer cases where "added" friction has no place. Why in the world would a manufacturer specify something with increased friction for that kind of application. Bottom line is that transmission fluid is a lubricant.

That's the way I see it anyway.

 

[Bluestream]

Re: Have ya wondered what fogging oil is made of? IVE BEEN CHECKING, Do Ya wanna know

No, its not abrasive. Its a lubricate, and many think it has special detergent properties which it does not. That myth goes way back.

 

[skargo]

Re: Have ya wondered what fogging oil is made of? IVE BEEN CHECKING, Do Ya wanna know

No, its not abrasive. Its a lubricate, and many think it has special detergent properties which it does not. That myth goes way back.

I'm going to need a little more than that, like proof?
I need to dig it up, but some guys on a diesel forum tested using it as a fuel system cleaner. They measured the orifice holes in the injectors before, and after using ATF.
The after measurements were bigger. Good enough for me to NOT put it in my engine. I mean, what is the definition of "friction modifier?"
You guys go ahead though, don't let me stop you.

 

[bruceb58]

Re: Have ya wondered what fogging oil is made of? IVE BEEN CHECKING, Do Ya wanna know

I'm going to need a little more than that, like proof?

I want proof why you think ATF is abrasive and not from some dude that posted in a diesel forum, especially one that had some notion that ATF was going to clean his injectors.

I do agree that ATF should only be used in transmissions or other hydraulic pumps that call out for it.

 

[skargo]

Re: Have ya wondered what fogging oil is made of? IVE BEEN CHECKING, Do Ya wanna know

I want proof why you think ATF is abrasive and not from some dude that posted in a diesel forum, especially one that had some notion that ATF was going to clean his injectors.

I do agree that ATF should only be used in transmissions or other hydraulic pumps that call out for it.

It wasn't "some dude" it was some guys at a diesel shop because they got tired of hearing about people using as a fuel system cleaner.
It was on the TDR, which I am not a paying member of anymore.

Prove to me it isn't. A friction modifier by nature would seem to be abrasive in nature, no?

Not sure why people put anything than what is supposed to be in an engine anyway.
Clean fuel, and clean oil should be all that's needed, with the exception of ethanol additives, which serve a legitimate purpose.