jetski thief shot dead.

[jasoutside]

Re: jetski thief shot dead.

It is not about killing thieves. It is about stopping a behavior (that statistically escalates into something dangerous) that the system cannot.

In this case? No way, I don't see it that way at all.

The thief came to steal a jet ski. When the kid loaded the shot gun and headed to the beach he put his life, and maybe even his mothers life, in danger. The jet ski was already at risk.

So what if this would have went south for the kid?

Gun jam?
Forget to load?
Trip and fall?
Miss?
Forget the safety?
Shoot himself in the leg?

Any one of those things could have easily happened and the thief could have turned into a killer real quick. The kid gets waxed and the lot of you guys would be saying "the jet ski wasn't worth it!!! Should have let him have it!" You'd be right too.

Tell ya what, my teenage son calls me and says "Hey dad, there is a guy stealing steeling stuff from the property", here is what I say to him...

Get the gun, load it, get your mother, go to the bathroom, don't talk, don't move. If the guy tries to open the bathroom door, aim and pull the trigger, and keep pulling. Then, take the empty gun and hit him with it, don't stop. I am on my way, I'll be there in one minute, I am driving fast, I'll call the police. Now do as I say.

I am glad the kid and his mother are ok.

I am sad this kid ended up killing somebody over a stupid jet ski. Mainly sad for the kid, he took another mans life.

Was it his right to waste this guy. I dunno, probably. Was it the right thing to do? Probably not. Had he stayed inside and called the police he would have kept out of harms way, have a new jet ski on the hoist next week (compliments of the insurance company), and no blood to clean up at the dock.

As a tax payer, I am glad the PWC thief isn't in "the system." I agree with many of you, our system is ridiculous.

As a hunter, I congratulate him on a well placed shot.

As a fellow iboater, I am very surprised at some of these comments.

As a father I am scared. I'd never dream of putting one of my offspring in between a thief and a toy, with a loaded weapon. No way. In between a guy coming to do harm to loved ones? Now we can talk.

You boys feel free to go terminator on the bad guys for taking your stuff. As for my household, I just assume not roll the dice if I don't have to. The wager is too great for me. My boys and I have too many years of fishing ahead of us.

 

[sasto]

Re: jetski thief shot dead.

Update from the Miami Herald

An intruder prowling outside a waterfront home, a frightened family, a confrontation with a gun, a burglar shot through the head.
Justifiable killing or a case for prosecution?
Questions mounted Tuesday about the circumstances that led to the killing of a 20-year-old man when he tried to steal a WaveRunner from a Miami Shores home.
Police reports indicate that a teen at the home grabbed a shotgun during a confrontation with the intruder and, believing he posed a danger to him and his family, fired. Law enforcement sources said the juvenile shooter is 14.
The teenager, who was not identified, was home with his mother, Yasmin Davis. His father, attorney Jeffrey Davis, was not present, the report said. Initially, the teenager and his mother told investigators that the intruder threatened them outside their home at 9275 N. Bayfront Dr. It was not clear what kind of threat, and police have not said whether the intruder, Reynaldo Mu?oz, 20, of Hialeah, was armed.
According to Jose Lopez, a family friend, Mu?oz could not have verbally threatened anyone because he used sign language and was deaf. Mu?oz?s father, Reynaldo Mu?oz, said the police report was wrong, but he declined to elaborate.
?I just buried my son,?? the father said Tuesday.
If Mu?oz was deaf and couldn?t speak, it may raise questions about the credibility of the family?s story, experts said. Initially, the mother and her son told police that Mu?oz indicated he was armed, but their statements have been inconsistent, police said. They have since hired attorneys and not spoken to investigators.
Meanwhile, Mu?oz?s alleged accomplice, Carolina Lopez, 19, was arraigned Tuesday on a charge of felony murder in connection with the death of her boyfriend. Under Florida law, if a death occurs during a felony, the accomplice can be charged with the death.
The Miami Herald could not reach Davis, either by phone or email.
Tamara Lave, a law professor at the University of Miami and a former public defender, said it?s unlikely that the state?s Castle Doctrine would justify the killing. Under the law, any criminal who forcibly enters a home or car is presumably there to cause death or bodily harm, justifying deadly force. But Lave said that does not appear to be the case in this incident.
?The burglar would have had to enter a residence, occupied dwelling or a vehicle, and in this case the burglar was only on the property,?? Lave said.
However, Lave said the shooting could have been in self-defense, which allows people to use deadly force to protect themselves from a person who is committing a forcible felony. Burglary is a felony, she said, but it?s murky whether this particular one was forcible.
?Either way, it may be for a judge or jury to decide,?? she said.
The family had been victims of a previous armed robbery at the home, according to police records.
The attempted burglary on Saturday happened about 2:30 p.m. when Mu?oz and Lopez drove to Pelican Harbor Marina in Miami. He parked his truck, and Mu?oz put his own WaveRunner in the water, and the couple navigated it to the Davis home. Police said Mu?oz then jumped into the water and started walking along a concrete seawall onto the Davis property. At that point, Lopez steered their WaveRunner back toward the marina.
As he removed Davis? WaveRunner, Mu?oz was ?confronted by the homeowner who armed himself with a shotgun in an attempt to protect his family,?? the police affidavit said.
Lopez, of Hialeah, confessed the plan to police, explaining that the couple planned on stealing the WaveRunner and selling it for $2,000, the police report said.
?Any statements that may have been made ? or evidence collected ? will be investigated,?? said Detective Roy Rutland, Miami-Dade police spokesman. Miami-Dade is involved in the investigation.
Two years ago, Davis? wife was assaulted in the driveway of their home by three men armed with semi-automatics. According to the police report, Jeffrey Davis did not have the remote to open the garage and exited the car to open the door. At that point, the men approached his wife in the car, and threatened to shoot her if she didn?t give them her purse. They then grabbed the purse and fled. She and her husband had just returned from dinner when the crime happened in September 2009. Afterward, Davis installed several security cameras in and around the house.​

Read more: http://www.miamiherald.com/2011/05/24/2232563/waverunner-thief-was-deaf.html#ixzz1NMrWsz3i​

 

[45Auto]

Re: jetski thief shot dead.

Consider this. If your child did something stupid like this with me, he would get to come home, possibly with boot leather up his bum but he would come home.

Yeah, and if the thief HAD been armed, he would be coming home with maybe some boot marks on him but you would never be going home again because you would be shot dead.

Action always beats reaction. It's easy to demonstrate. Get a shot timer. Put your finger on the stop button. When the buzzer goes off, press the stop button as quickly as you can. You'll find that your reaction time is around 1/4 second.

We run the same demo in every pistol class. Finger on the trigger of the gun, ready to shoot, pointed downrange. Don't even try to hit anything. When the buzzer goes off pull the trigger and get off a shot as fast as you can. It'll be around 1/4 second.

I've run this demo every pistol class I've conducted with a local sheriff's department for the past 15 years with several thousand students. A reaction time around 1/4 second (.25 second) is typical. The very fastest will be between .15 and .20.

On the other hand, almost anyone can get off a repeat shot every 1/10th of a second (.10 second) once they start shooting.

A standard qualifying criteria in many departments is to be able to put 2 shots center mass of the target in less than 1.5 seconds from the holster. From the low ready position (pistol in hand) it's 2 shots in less than 1 second. I've never seen anyone fail these parts the qualification.

With their hand on the gun in the pocket of a sweatshirt and shooting through the sweatshirt (hammerless revolver is best, doesn't get hung up on the cloth), everyone we've tried can usually get off 3 or 4 shots to center mass from the 3 yard line in less than 1 second. First shot is usually at .50 or .60, with follow up shots every .10 to .15 afterwards.

What all this means is that if a thief indicates he's armed, then starts a threatening move, there's a good chance you won't be going home if you wait around to see if he's telling the truth.

If the kid was holding the thief at gunpoint and the thief started to make a threatening move (hands ANYWHERE that they couldn't be seen), the kid would be dead instead of the thief if the thief really was armed and the kid didn't shoot immiediatley.

 

[Thajeffski]

Re: jetski thief shot dead.

1. What dumbass decides to steal a jetski on a Saturday afternoon when there's a VERY HIGH chance of people being home. I mean geeze, not just average dumb, way dumb.

2. It's a 14 year old boy, all he knows is that his mom isn't the same since she was assaulted and his dad has probably trained him to defend anything and everything, the crook picked the wrong house to mess with.

3. I'd be leaving the area perm. if I was this family

4. Just one more scumbag dead. I'm sorry but when you make the choice to become a thief there is no coming back you are morally corrupt and deserve what you get.

 

[Philip_G]

Re: jetski thief shot dead.

Not according to the learning material in the CCWP course I just completed it is. The sample sited was if someone was steeling or vandalizing your car in/form your driveway you do not have the right to shoot them. You may confront them (with weapon drawn) but unless they threaten you, you cannot use deadly force. Nor can you contain them if the choose to flee. And shame on you if you shoot them while attempting to flee. In the back for instance.

Then you were given bad information. In some states- notably texas, deadly force can be used to protect PROPERTY.

Sec. 9.42. DEADLY FORCE TO PROTECT PROPERTY. A person is justified in using deadly force against another to protect land or tangible, movable property:
(1) if he would be justified in using force against the other under Section 9.41; and
(2) when and to the degree he reasonably believes the deadly force is immediately necessary:
(A) to prevent the other's imminent commission of arson, burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, theft during the nighttime, or criminal mischief during the nighttime; or
(B) to prevent the other who is fleeing immediately after committing burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, or theft during the nighttime from escaping with the property; and
(3) he reasonably believes that:
(A) the land or property cannot be protected or recovered by any other means; or
(B) the use of force other than deadly force to protect or recover the land or property would expose the actor or another to a substantial risk of death or serious bodily injury.

 

[Splat]

Re: jetski thief shot dead.

Here's the only thing i'll add on the topic. Besides the fact that there's lots of incorrect information being flung around by uninformed people here. I am a ccw instructor.

The castle doctrine has no play here. Castle doctrine by definition only apply to ones castle(dwelling) and in some states extends to ones vehicle or camper while IT'S OCCUPIED. A castle doctrine makes the assumption that if a assailant forcibly enters "castle" they are there to cause serious bodily harm. Thus you are justified in using any means necessary including and up to deadly force to protect your life. It in no way extends to ones property. Also the presumption of self defense is a "rebuttable presumption" meaning the prosecutor holds the burden to prove you wrong. Castle doctrines DO NOT RELIEVE YOU FROM A BURDEN IF PROOF. All that means is the law assumes you were correct in your actions, unless it can be proven other wise. It's not a free pass to start blowing people away in your home. Likewise a castle doctrine only (in the state of Ohio atleast) helps to protect you from a criminal prosecution. It provides no protection from civil liability of your actions. I believe this fact varies from state to state.

Also for one in the state of Ohio Atleast to claim self defense 3 conditions must be met:
Defendant is nut at fault, did not create situation
Reasonable and honest belief of danger
You had no duty to retreat or could not safely do so.

These may vary slightly from state to state but are pretty universal. Also self defense is a "affirmative defense" unlike the rebuttable presumption, you are perceived as guilty in the laws eyes until you can prove the 3 requirements to clear yourself.

Bill

 

[sasto]

Re: jetski thief shot dead.

Here's the only thing i'll add on the topic. Besides the fact that there's lots of incorrect information being flung around by uninformed people here. I am a ccw instructor.


Bill

The Florida "Castle Doctrine" law basically does three things:

One: It establishes, in law, the presumption that a criminal who forcibly enters or intrudes into your home or occupied vehicle is there to cause death or great bodily harm, therefore a person may use any manner of force, including deadly force, against that person.

Two: It removes the "duty to retreat" if you are attacked in any place you have a right to be. You no longer have to turn your back on a criminal and try to run when attacked. Instead, you may stand your ground and fight back, meeting force with force, including deadly force, if you reasonably believe it is necessary to prevent death or great bodily harm to yourself or others. [This is an American right repeatedly recognized in Supreme Court gun cases.]

Three: It provides that persons using force authorized by law shall not be prosecuted for using such force.

It also prohibits criminals and their families from suing victims for injuring or killing the criminals who have attacked them.

 

[Art Bernard]

Re: jetski thief shot dead.

In responce to a question posted earlier-Let me clairify, If I caught a guy outside on my property I would draw on him, hold him at gunpoint and call the law. If he tried to flee, I would let him go, but if he showed any signs of aggresiveness at all (not holding his hands where I can see them, stepping towards me, turning his body so I couldn't see what he was doing, etc...) than I will fire. If I catch the guy in my house/breaking into my house (as I did before) he's dead, no questions asked.

Art

 

[ezmobee]

Re: jetski thief shot dead.

In responce to a question posted earlier-Let me clairify, If I caught a guy outside on my property I would draw on him, hold him at gunpoint and call the law. If he tried to flee, I would let him go, but if he showed any signs of aggresiveness at all (not holding his hands where I can see them, stepping towards me, turning his body so I couldn't see what he was doing, etc...) than I will fire. If I catch the guy in my house/breaking into my house (as I did before) he's dead, no questions asked.

Art

I'm on the same page with you then Art.

 

[Limited-Time]

Re: jetski thief shot dead.

Update from the Miami Herald

An intruder prowling outside a waterfront home, a frightened family, a confrontation with a gun, a burglar shot through the head..........................................................................................................
Law enforcement sources said the juvenile shooter is 14.
The teenager, who was not identified, was home with his mother, Yasmin Davis.................................​

That further reinforces "Jr goes on to confront the ski thief. Things go way wrong way to fast, Jr doesn't have the experience or maturity to handle the escalating situation gets twitchy and shoots".......​

 

[wifisher]

Re: jetski thief shot dead.

Then you were given bad information. In some states- notably texas, deadly force can be used to protect PROPERTY.

Sec. 9.42. DEADLY FORCE TO PROTECT PROPERTY. A person is justified in using deadly force against another to protect land or tangible, movable property:
(1) if he would be justified in using force against the other under Section 9.41; and
(2) when and to the degree he reasonably believes the deadly force is immediately necessary:
(A) to prevent the other's imminent commission of arson, burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, theft during the nighttime, or criminal mischief during the nighttime; or
(B) to prevent the other who is fleeing immediately after committing burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, or theft during the nighttime from escaping with the property; and
(3) he reasonably believes that:
(A) the land or property cannot be protected or recovered by any other means; or
(B) the use of force other than deadly force to protect or recover the land or property would expose the actor or another to a substantial risk of death or serious bodily injury.

Under the section that you posted, JR is still able to be prosecuted.

(1) section 9.41 is not available.

(2)
(a) specifically states "during the nighttime" This case was the middle of the day.
(b) same as (a) nighttime

(3)
(a)The property can easily be recovered by other means. Either go to the boat launch, or call the insurance co.
(b)The use of deadly force was not required to save anybody from bodily harm. If jr stays inside, the thief would have been gone in a couple of minutes.

 

[Splat]

Re: jetski thief shot dead.

The Florida "Castle Doctrine" law basically does three things:

One: It establishes, in law, the presumption that a criminal who forcibly enters or intrudes into your home or occupied vehicle is there to cause death or great bodily harm, therefore a person may use any manner of force, including deadly force, against that person.

Two: It removes the "duty to retreat" if you are attacked in any place you have a right to be. You no longer have to turn your back on a criminal and try to run when attacked. Instead, you may stand your ground and fight back, meeting force with force, including deadly force, if you reasonably believe it is necessary to prevent death or great bodily harm to yourself or others. [This is an American right repeatedly recognized in Supreme Court gun cases.]

Three: It provides that persons using force authorized by law shall not be prosecuted for using such force.

It also prohibits criminals and their families from suing victims for injuring or killing the criminals who have attacked them.

Not sure what point you were trying to make by quoting me if any, but this basically sums up what I was saying in a nutshell.

Florida castle doctrine presumes the criminal is there to cause serious bodily harm, and removes your duty to retreat while in your dwelling or vehicle.

My understanding with the part you have outlined is this applies to the inside if a structure, dwelling, hotel, camper, car, pizza shop, etc. Not a wide open area in your backyard. I will go check the revised code to be sure.



Bill

 

[tommays]

Re: jetski thief shot dead.

I wish i could write as well as some of you

The big problem i see is that the law is SO different from state to state AND IN NY YOU WOULD BE SCREWED

Big problem #2 is that the decision to go after you is very political as the DA is and elected official that has to create the perception of law and order to keep being the DA

My son is and ADA and he works to the DAs point of view and it has become really difficult to get convictions on the "minor " crimes as the jury pool watches to much CSI and things every case works like TV

 

[1980Coronado]

Re: jetski thief shot dead.

Life is a series of choices....choose wisely.

 

[waterinthefuel]

Re: jetski thief shot dead.

I am going to add this, many say they will have no problem killing another human being, I myself have no desire to kill another human being as long as I live, I have killed enough in my career in the military. Would I? yes, without hesitation in the least, in the right situation, but I can tell you for a fact, it is not easy to do, and you will live with it for the rest of your life..

May the Lord be with you and help you to be strong and live well with the knowledge that you killed people who were a threat to your life.

Thank you for your service to this country, it will forever be remembered and appreciated.

Thank you to all our soldiers and all branches of defense!

 

[wifisher]

Re: jetski thief shot dead.

^^^^^^^ x2

 

[sasto]

Re: jetski thief shot dead.




Here is the shooter with our then Governor a couple years ago. A bill was passed in his name for for his efforts to feed the homeless. The bill allowed Florida restaurants to give unused or leftover food to those in need. He is a good kid, and i sincerely hope he did the right thing. I have a friend who worked for his dad. I've heard rumors, but will only publish facts.

 

[45Auto]

Re: jetski thief shot dead.

Originally Posted by 45Auto
Yeah, and if the thief HAD been armed

And if money grew on trees I would be rich.

Your choice. Figure your chances of finding money growing on trees versus your chances of coming up against an armed thief and make your choices appropriately!

 

[sasto]

Re: jetski thief shot dead.

As a fifth-grader, Jack Davis was lauded by the Florida state legislature, named ?Person of the Year? by ABC News and danced on the Ellen DeGeneres show.

At the ripe old age of 11, Jack was praised for helping to craft a bill, signed by Gov. Charlie Crist, called the ?Jack Davis Lending a Helping Hand Act.? The law encourages restaurants and other eateries to donate leftover food to homeless shelters.
But, now, three years later, Jack is the focus of a Miami-Dade police probe in connection with the controversial shooting death of an intruder who tried to steal his WaveRunner from his Miami Shores home.

On Saturday, Jack allegedly armed himself with a shotgun and, during a confrontation with the would-be burglar, he fired, striking Reynaldo Mu?oz in the head. Police have not identified Jack as the shooter, but Miami Herald clips and several sources who know the family have.

At the time he pressed for the law, Jack was described as a soft-spoken teenager with a mop of red curly hair who waged a writing campaign that offered protection to restaurants from being sued in the event the food they donated was linked to food poisoning -- an obstacle that prevented eateries from donating food to shelters
.
He continued to press restaurants to donate food, and helped raise money for the homeless. DeGeneres, along with Sara Lee, donated $10,000 of its food to the Miami​

 

[1980Coronado]

Re: jetski thief shot dead.

But he was not armed. Everyone else understands that, why don't you? Sorry but when it comes to a human life I am not going to act on "what if" or "maybe" or even the "boogie man". IMHO a person that does is the last person that should own a gun.

Hind sight is always 20/20......the kid had no way of knowing. The point is moot. This 14 year old sounds more mature than most adults I know....certainly isn't sitting around playing video games all day if he's out lobbying the state legislature in an attempt to get government out of the way of good people trying to help feed the hungry. Pin a medal on him! Who in this thread thinks justice is served by putting this kid in jail?