Pictures of your battery systems inc. switches/ACRs?

[MassillonBuckeye]

Re: Pictures of your battery systems inc. switches/ACRs?

Ah, yeah maybe I should have specified. I'm talking about fusing the wires from battery to ACR not switch sorry. So when they are talking 60, 90, 100a load, they are talking like an alternator setup? High output? Where in my rig were talking about however many amps I am charging with. Which is 7~9 from the motor, and 6a from the portable charger... Minor. Ok. I was a bit confused about that.. But I knew only to fuse the house load, and the ACR itself. Along with the ground from the ACR. Sounds like my house load might need the biggest fuses then if I'm running some running lights, gauges, fish finder and radio(not high powered). Does that make sense?

So it looks like I want to mount the switch and ACR near the starting battery since the battery cable to the starter is already routed there. Then I would just need about a 4ft battery cable to get from the house side(starboard) over to the switch(starter, port). And fuse/splice the house load to get from house compartment(where it terminates now, starboard) to switch(port). You think its safe to fuse that #12 line at the splice there in the House compartment? We'd have the 3.5 ft going across to the switch unprotected.. We're only talking smallish load though.. Maybe 20a fuse there?

Thank you for the diagram Any particular lower amperage in-line fuse holders you prefer?

 

[Don S]

Re: Pictures of your battery systems inc. switches/ACRs?

So when they are talking 60, 90, 100a load, they are talking like an alternator setup?

Yes, a typical IO today uses a 60 amp alternator, so do some of the larger EFI outboards.

So it looks like I want to mount the switch and ACR near the starting battery since the battery cable to the starter is already routed there. And I just need about a 4ft battery cable to get from the house side(starboard) over to the switch

Basically Yes. The house battery cables over a 4 ft run won't change, but you have to remember to do both positive and ground so the starting circuit will work.

 

[MassillonBuckeye]

Re: Pictures of your battery systems inc. switches/ACRs?

Yes, a typical IO today uses a 60 amp alternator, so do some of the larger EFI outboards.



Basically Yes. The house battery cables over a 4 ft run won't change, but you have to remember to do both positive and ground so the starting circuit will work.

Yes yes. Well it was grounded to the starter battery so that won't change. Going to use the #4 for that? P/O had used a green #10.

 

[toolman99]

Re: Pictures of your battery systems inc. switches/ACRs?

ok no pictures but it's a simple system. connect a starting relay between the + terminals and power it on when the motor is in run position. That way both batteries will charge when the engine is on but house is split off with the engine off. It may not be elegant but it's cheap and easy and hasn't failed me once in over 20 years.

 

[mark1905]

Re: Pictures of your battery systems inc. switches/ACRs?

Starting relays can burn from continuous power. Use a battery isolater relay as talked about here: http://www.mastercraft.com/teamtalk/showthread.php?t=3557

 

[Don S]

Re: Pictures of your battery systems inc. switches/ACRs?

Starting relays can burn from continuous power. Use a battery isolater relay as talked about here: http://www.mastercraft.com/teamtalk/showthread.php?t=3557

Mark, the ACR is the modern version of that 2005 thread and the isolator relay. Just a different name, and newer technology.

 

[mark1905]

Re: Pictures of your battery systems inc. switches/ACRs?

Mark, the ACR is the modern version of that 2005 thread and the isolator relay. Just a different name, and newer technology.

You're right.. I apologize for not reading higher than a few latest posts.. :redface:

 

[UncleWillie]

Re: Pictures of your battery systems inc. switches/ACRs?

... However, you have a 7-9 amp output from the engine alternator so I rather doubt the ACR is going to be any benefit since it would not likely switch to the house battery very often since it's total output would generally be required by the starting battery...

I just checked the manual.
The ACR will close if either battery goes above 13.0volts. (Drop out at 12.75)
So if either battery sees a charge, the other one will be sharing the charge within the minute.
The issue may be that neither battery will get preference, or get more than a ~4amp charge.

Unless the motor runs a lot more than the house load drains, When the start battery starts to charge, the low house load will come on line and actually be charged by the start battery up to the point that they are balanced.
This could lead to start battery never getting topped off by the alternator.

Remember that the 7-9 amp charge only happens at higher RPM's.
If you do a lot of trolling with a 1-2 amps house load, you may not get a restart, as the Alternator will be slowly loosing to the house load.

The core of the problem is the OB charging system was only meant to top off the start battery and not power much more.
The Bilge pump, Nav lights, and Fishfinder are about all you would want to power.
Any much more, and a larger Alternator would be advised.

 

[toolman99]

Re: Pictures of your battery systems inc. switches/ACRs?

As to OB alternators, newer models come stock with high amp alt. my Merc has a 50 amp. The ACR is a fancy way to do the same thing but very expensive to get the full charge rate and the battery isolation relay is a starter solenoid with a 1000% markup. As I said, it's simple and worked fine for over 20 years in my last boat (72 MFG gypsy with 73 65 Merc, dual batteries auto cranking and Marine deep cycle)

BTW with the money you save on the switch you can almost add another deep cycle batt

 

[MassillonBuckeye]

Re: Pictures of your battery systems inc. switches/ACRs?

As to OB alternators, newer models come stock with high amp alt. my Merc has a 50 amp. The ACR is a fancy way to do the same thing but very expensive to get the full charge rate and the battery isolation relay is a starter solenoid with a 1000% markup. As I said, it's simple and worked fine for over 20 years in my last boat (72 MFG gypsy with 73 65 Merc, dual batteries auto cranking and Marine deep cycle)

BTW with the money you save on the switch you can almost add another deep cycle batt

I don't have room for a third battery so thats a moot point. I want to charge both with one charger. Not really worried about the motor charging anything. I don't have a huge drain on the house circuit if you had not gathered that already. Its a pretty simple setup. I'll bring it home and hook it up to a portable charger to bring both batteries back up. I just don't want the starter battery to have the possibility to drain while on the water in the even I DO stay out too long, or leave something running, or..... Thank you for the other options guys. Would love to hear more opinions.

 

[MassillonBuckeye]

Re: Pictures of your battery systems inc. switches/ACRs?

I just checked the manual.
The ACR will close if either battery goes above 13.0volts. (Drop out at 12.75)
So if either battery sees a charge, the other one will be sharing the charge within the minute.
The issue may be that neither battery will get preference, or get more than a ~4amp charge.

Unless the motor runs a lot more than the house load drains, When the start battery starts to charge, the low house load will come on line and actually be charged by the start battery up to the point that they are balanced.
This could lead to start battery never getting topped off by the alternator.

Remember that the 7-9 amp charge only happens at higher RPM's.
If you do a lot of trolling with a 1-2 amps house load, you may not get a restart, as the Alternator will be slowly loosing to the house load.

The core of the problem is the OB charging system was only meant to top off the start battery and not power much more.
The Bilge pump, Nav lights, and Fishfinder are about all you would want to power.
Any much more, and a larger Alternator would be advised.

So you are saying when it detects a charge, and links the batteries, its actually going to drain the battery which is more full to equalize the voltage? How long would that take? Even if its receiving the 7-9a from the motor? Hadn't thought of that.

 

[dingbat]

Re: Pictures of your battery systems inc. switches/ACRs?

So you are saying when it detects a charge, and links the batteries, its actually going to drain the battery which is more full to equalize the voltage? How long would that take? Even if its receiving the 7-9a from the motor? Hadn't thought of that.

An ACR allows two battery banks to be connected so that they can share the output of a single charge source, allowing the user to charge more battery banks than the number of charging outputs. An ACR senses when the voltage of either of the batteries rises to a level indicating that a charge source is active (13.0V for 2 minutes). The ACR′s contacts then connect and the ACR applies the charge to both batteries. If the voltage on both of the batteries subsequently drops to 12.75V for 30 seconds, the ACR will disconnect, isolating the batteries.

It’s not uncommon to see the charge relay stay engaged for 5-10 minutes after I turn the motor off as the batteries equalize.

 

[MassillonBuckeye]

Re: Pictures of your battery systems inc. switches/ACRs?

An ACR allows two battery banks to be connected so that they can share the output of a single charge source, allowing the user to charge more battery banks than the number of charging outputs. An ACR senses when the voltage of either of the batteries rises to a level indicating that a charge source is active (13.0V for 2 minutes). The ACR′s contacts then connect and the ACR applies the charge to both batteries. If the voltage on both of the batteries subsequently drops to 12.75V for 30 seconds, the ACR will disconnect, isolating the batteries.

It’s not uncommon to see the charge relay stay engaged for 5-10 minutes after I turn the motor off as the batteries equalize.

Explain the scenario with one battery(house) considerably lower in voltage than the other(starter) when the ACR closes? Do they both immediately start charging or do they have to equalize? Do I run the risk of equalizing my starter battery to below the cranking needs of the motor by starting and stopping? Which should close the acr for the time I'm running?

Since you are running a similar system, what is your advice for my situation? Small to medium house load, 7~9a charger on motor, 6a portable charger at home. A bit of stop and go, not a whole lot of running on the lake usually. I like to drift or troll while fishing. Trolling motor has two batteries of its own that we aren't worried about for the ACR application.

 

[dingbat]

Re: Pictures of your battery systems inc. switches/ACRs?

The batteries share a single input, which is regulated by the ACR. When charging, the ACR will not close to charge the secondary battery until the house battery is above 13 volts for 2 minutes. The relay remains closed until the primary battery drops below 12.7 volts then opens until the primary is back to 13 volts and the cycle repeats itself. If your input (charge) does not exceed your usage, you may end up with an discharged secondary battery at the end of the day. The output relay from the secondary battery cuts out at 10.5V.

That is not an issue on my setup since I have a 60 amp alternator and I typically run long distances but it may be on yours with such a small input. As said, it’s not unusual to see my batteries combined (equalize) at the dock for a couple of minutes but all that tells me is that my primary is above 13.6 volts and my secondary is lower than the primary. Even if the secondary is way under charged, the “equalization” will shut off when the primary reaches 12.7 volts.

 

[MassillonBuckeye]

Re: Pictures of your battery systems inc. switches/ACRs?

The batteries share a single input, which is regulated by the ACR. When charging, the ACR will not close to charge the secondary battery until the house battery is above 13 volts for 2 minutes. The relay remains closed until the primary battery drops below 12.7 volts then opens until the primary is back to 13 volts and the cycle repeats itself. If your input (charge) does not exceed your usage, you may end up with an discharged secondary battery at the end of the day. The output relay from the secondary battery cuts out at 10.5V.

That is not an issue on my setup since I have a 60 amp alternator and I typically run long distances but it may be on yours with such a small input. As said, it’s not unusual to see my batteries combined (equalize) at the dock for a couple of minutes but all that tells me is that my primary is above 13.6 volts and my secondary is lower than the primary. Even if the secondary is way under charged, the “equalization” will shut off when the primary reaches 12.7 volts.

"discharged Secondary battery" meaning starter? Hmm. If I start with full batteries, say run to one spot, fish for 60min or so, the house battery really shouldn't drop much, especially during the day. I don't see myself draining it. I'm using a new interstate deep cycle for house battery. Ug, I dunno now. What do I do? Lol.

 

[Silvertip]

Re: Pictures of your battery systems inc. switches/ACRs?

The "starting" battery is generally considered the "primary" battery which is the one you want to protect. The "secondary" battery is generally considered the "house" battery. It is my opinion that you are over complicating this system -- especially since you have no huge current draw situations and since you have such a low output alternator. With all of your loads on the house battery, the starting battery would likely start the engine for a week without needing a charge so a simple switch that transfers the charging output from the primary to the secondary battery is all you need. Set it to the house battery and go fishing. A pair of jumper cables would suffice to jump the primary to secondary battery for starting should the need arise. Simple, cheap and effective and the switch can be installed on the console with a pair of indicators that tell you which battery is being charged.

 

[MassillonBuckeye]

Re: Pictures of your battery systems inc. switches/ACRs?

The "starting" battery is generally considered the "primary" battery which is the one you want to protect. The "secondary" battery is generally considered the "house" battery. It is my opinion that you are over complicating this system -- especially since you have no huge current draw situations and since you have such a low output alternator. With all of your loads on the house battery, the starting battery would likely start the engine for a week without needing a charge so a simple switch that transfers the charging output from the primary to the secondary battery is all you need. Set it to the house battery and go fishing. A pair of jumper cables would suffice to jump the primary to secondary battery for starting should the need arise. Simple, cheap and effective and the switch can be installed on the console with a pair of indicators that tell you which battery is being charged.

Thats what one would tend to assume. He said

the ACR will not close to charge the secondary battery until the house battery is above 13 volts for 2 minutes.

which made me think otherwise.. So now when I read his comment, the only problem I'm seeing is the charger not replacing the charge in the House bank since I specified shorter runs, and low amperage charge while running. Which is what's going to happen with or without the ACR. My house battery will drain and I'm not going to count on my motor to charge it. My primary battery will still be isolated?

 

[Silvertip]

Re: Pictures of your battery systems inc. switches/ACRs?

I'm suggesting you forget the dual battery swtich and the ACR. Whether you use it or not, the low output of the engine charging system needs to be dedicated to one battery -- the one that YOU feel needs the charge while running. The simple switch I mention is nothing more than a 10 - 20 amp toggle switch placed in the charging line from the charging system. In one position the starting battery gets charged. In the other the charge is directed to the house battery. That switch can be placed on the console and wiring is nothing more than 10 AWG wire and YOU therefore control where the charge goes. If your engine is hard to start and you need repeated cranking to get it started then this is probably not a viable solution. On the other hand, it is a problem anyway since an ACR would never switch to the house battery since you constantly drag the starting battery down with hard starting. The fix for that is learn how to start the engine or get the engine fixed so it does start properly. All of this of course applies ONLY if hard starting is an issue. My thoughts are that since you need the charge for the house battery more than you do the starting battery, start the engine, switch to the house battery and leave it there for the duration of your outing. When you head back/move the house battery still gets whatever charge capacity you have available. The engine will start dozens of times without topping off the battery between starts. A voltmeter on the console along with another toggle switch will allow you to check the voltage of each battery. If you had a larger charging system then the switch and ACR makes more sense but your current configuration cannot make effective use of the features. If you already have these items and they aren't returnable then you might as well install them and hope that it provides the operation you are looking for. I contend however, that in your case this simply is not an effective solution from a cost or functional standpoint. But, I've been wrong before -- once I think!!!!!

 

[MassillonBuckeye]

Re: Pictures of your battery systems inc. switches/ACRs?

I'm suggesting you forget the dual battery swtich and the ACR. Whether you use it or not, the low output of the engine charging system needs to be dedicated to one battery -- the one that YOU feel needs the charge while running. The simple switch I mention is nothing more than a 10 - 20 amp toggle switch placed in the charging line from the charging system. In one position the starting battery gets charged. In the other the charge is directed to the house battery. That switch can be placed on the console and wiring is nothing more than 10 AWG wire and YOU therefore control where the charge goes. If your engine is hard to start and you need repeated cranking to get it started then this is probably not a viable solution. On the other hand, it is a problem anyway since an ACR would never switch to the house battery since you constantly drag the starting battery down with hard starting. The fix for that is learn how to start the engine or get the engine fixed so it does start properly. All of this of course applies ONLY if hard starting is an issue. My thoughts are that since you need the charge for the house battery more than you do the starting battery, start the engine, switch to the house battery and leave it there for the duration of your outing. When you head back/move the house battery still gets whatever charge capacity you have available. The engine will start dozens of times without topping off the battery between starts. A voltmeter on the console along with another toggle switch will allow you to check the voltage of each battery. If you had a larger charging system then the switch and ACR makes more sense but your current configuration cannot make effective use of the features. If you already have these items and they aren't returnable then you might as well install them and hope that it provides the operation you are looking for. I contend however, that in your case this simply is not an effective solution from a cost or functional standpoint. But, I've been wrong before -- once I think!!!!!

Haha. Well we can certainly forgive that one instance. And yes, I've already acquired the parts but I can return them.

Hard starting is not an issue. You are advising to not connect the batteries in parallel at all? Could you describe or illustrate your simple charging switch? I don't see the use of bothering with that really since I'm using a portable 6a charger. It'd be just as easy to move the charger from one battery to the other and just completely isolate them. Which doesn't afford me any insurance if the starter battery would happen to kick the bucket for some reason and leave me stranded. Other than physically switch the batteries on the water.. Which I guess Could be done if necessary. Bah!!

 

[Silvertip]

Re: Pictures of your battery systems inc. switches/ACRs?

You are really missing the poinit on this charging issue. The switch I refer to is to direct the charge from the engine and has nothing to do with the Guest charger. On one hand you seem to be concerned about NOT paralleling the batteries yet you WANT TO parallel them if the starting battery takes a dump. This is really a non-issue since you have all the loads EXCEPT starting on the HOUSE battery. If anything goes dead it will be that one, not the starting battery. I don't have time to do a diagram for you at this time but will do so this evening. It is simple, cheap, and you can use it from the console with a one second flip to direct the engine charging system toward either battery. No need to do BOTH since it serves no purpose with such a small output. Stay tuned.