Pictures of your battery systems inc. switches/ACRs?

[MassillonBuckeye]

Re: Pictures of your battery systems inc. switches/ACRs?

You are really missing the poinit on this charging issue. The switch I refer to is to direct the charge from the engine and has nothing to do with the Guest charger. On one hand you seem to be concerned about NOT paralleling the batteries yet you WANT TO parallel them if the starting battery takes a dump. This is really a non-issue since you have all the loads EXCEPT starting on the HOUSE battery. If anything goes dead it will be that one, not the starting battery. I don't have time to do a diagram for you at this time but will do so this evening. It is simple, cheap, and you can use it from the console with a one second flip to direct the engine charging system toward either battery. No need to do BOTH since it serves no purpose with such a small output. Stay tuned.

Gotcha. Thanks for clarifying. Yes I was thinking about the portable charger not the motor. Eh you've got me to the point I don't even want a battery switch or a charging switch. Although 7~9a is a decent amount of charge. This 6a Guest charger I bought did a pretty nice quick charge on the batteries. I doubt my starter battery dies, although I'm not aware of its history other than it took a charge pretty quick from the Guest 6a last night. And in the rare event it would croak, I can swap the batteries physically. I was kind of working on the assumption of keeping them tied together and charging together.. Which of course also makes them drain together. I hate this! ARGH! See now I want to be able to hook the house to the alternator for a charge in the event I run it down. Do you think we're undervaluing the rate of charge coming from the motor here? If I DO make some runs, why waste those charging amps on the starter battery when its most likely still full anyhow? The motor starts super easy.

I'd appreciate that diagram and some recommended parts for that. You talking a regular ole battery switch? 1, 2, both, off? I doubt I'll have enough draw to make a difference, but with so many unknowns like older connections, older bulbs, older fish finder, new stereo, unknown history on house battery. Maybe that's why I'm so indecisive here. Maybe I should just take it out and run it and watch to see what the batteries do. Maybe I'll get a nice dual or tri battery gauge so I can monitor.

 

[smokeonthewater]

Re: Pictures of your battery systems inc. switches/ACRs?

Wow talk about OVER THINKING a nonexistent problem. I stopped reading quite a few posts from the end......

edit I just scanned a bit more of the thread and noticed that I'm not the first to make some of these points.
Also understand that the charge amperage from the engine is not free. While it will be a small load, charging batts DOES technically use power that would otherwise propel the boat, thus, by not using it to charge the batt, you aren't "wasting" it but rather you are putting that much more to the prop.... just an fyi

I would suggest that you step back and think outside the box.....

point 1:
You don't have enough of a charging system on your motor to handle two batteries unless you intend to run the engine for about 10 times as long as you intend to anchor... you can't reasonably charge your house batts on the water.

point 2:
Your starting battery SHOULDN'T need charged between trips.

My thoughts are this: Your house batt has enough power to run all of your stated house functions for a few days without charging and in the event that your starting battery spontaneously fails you can simply swap it with the house batt on the water and be on your way.

The solution in my book is to leave it alone and simply charge your house batt when at home.

If this in unappealing to you, then by all means, carry on. Just offering an opinion.

cheers

 

[MassillonBuckeye]

Re: Pictures of your battery systems inc. switches/ACRs?

Wow talk about OVER THINKING a nonexistent problem. I stopped reading quite a few posts from the end......

edit I just scanned a bit more of the thread and noticed that I'm not the first to make some of these points.
Also understand that the charge amperage from the engine is not free. While it will be a small load, charging batts DOES technically use power that would otherwise propel the boat, thus, by not using it to charge the batt, you aren't "wasting" it but rather you are putting that much more to the prop.... just an fyi

I would suggest that you step back and think outside the box.....

point 1:
You don't have enough of a charging system on your motor to handle two batteries unless you intend to run the engine for about 10 times as long as you intend to anchor... you can't reasonably charge your house batts on the water.

point 2:
Your starting battery SHOULDN'T need charged between trips.

My thoughts are this: Your house batt has enough power to run all of your stated house functions for a few days without charging and in the event that your starting battery spontaneously fails you can simply swap it with the house batt on the water and be on your way.

The solution in my book is to leave it alone and simply charge your house batt when at home.

If this in unappealing to you, then by all means, carry on. Just offering an opinion.

cheers

Yeah.. I think I'm with you on this one. Redundancy isn't worth the money or the hassle. If I need to swap in an emergency I can. I'll have a small toolkit onboard. I hope at least this thread answers some questions for someone someday! Heh.

Well, the other thing I was trying to accomplish as well is only having to use 2 chargers once I get home. A battery tender on the primary/secondary setup in the stern and the 6a portable on my 2 troller batteries wired in parallel up front. Its just going to take a bit longer without a switch or anything.

 

[Silvertip]

Re: Pictures of your battery systems inc. switches/ACRs?

This is about as simple and cheap as you can get. The switch is a 10 - 20 amp rated single pole double throw available at Radio Shack for less than five bucks. The two 12 volt panel lights would also be avaialble at Radio Shack, again for less than five bucks. All wiring entering and leaving the switch can be 14 gauge. The wires to and from the panel lights can be 16 gauge. The pos and neg leads for your house loads should be #8 or 10 depending on what the total load is expected to be. The battery cables going to the engine remain as they are. The charging line from the engine is simple and extension of the line that is currently connected to the starter solenoid where the large battery cable is connected. Disconnect that charging line and extend it to the switch using a 15 amp fuse inside the engine cow. In operation you now have control which battery is being charged with the simple flick of a switch. The appropriate panel light tells you which one is being charged. As was pointed out earlier, you are worrying way too much about killing the start battery. Since there is nothing else connected to it (according to you), nothing can discharge it. Years ago, electric start engines didn't even have generators or alternators and the batteries lasted for weeks without charging. If you feel you need to start the engine from the house battery, all you need is ONE jumper cable to jump the two positive posts. Use a standard battery cable to make the permanent connection between the two negative posts. I don't remember if you said what engine you have but most 75 HP and smaller engines can be rope started so the only emergency starter you need is a length of rope. I'm done here.

WARNING: to anyone else who feels the need to use this scheme, you CANNOT do this if you have a high output charging system. You can of course, but all of the wiring and especially the switch must be capable of handling the maximum current output of your alternator. Switches greater than 15A tend to get expensive so you may as well use a dual battery switch scheme.

 

[smokeonthewater]

Re: Pictures of your battery systems inc. switches/ACRs?

Another thought.... why not just ditch the "house" battery altogether. Use a single BIG dual purpose in the rear and your trolling batts in the front.

You then still have the trolling batts for emergency starting duty.

The money (and weight) you save by eliminating the 4th batt, would make it less painful to pick up an on board 3 bank charger that would charge all 3 by just plugging in 1 cord.

 

[smokeonthewater]

Re: Pictures of your battery systems inc. switches/ACRs?

interesting BUT:
Both lights would stay on at all times until the batts were dead, whether the engine was running or not, unless diodes were added.
SOME charging systems could be damaged if the switch were thrown while the engine was running.

 

[Silvertip]

Re: Pictures of your battery systems inc. switches/ACRs?

Problem solved -- eliminate the idiot lights.

 

[MassillonBuckeye]

Re: Pictures of your battery systems inc. switches/ACRs?

Yeah that's fine. I know I can start the motor with a rope. There is a piece of rope, in a bag under the cowl and I'd have to take the cowl off to do it. Not going to be easy when you have to pull it off from the back. So no, not really an option. Sure you can jumper batteries together with a jumper cable and get started in a pinch. Then you have to keep an extra jumper cable laying around. Silvertip, you are the one that pointed me at the ACR in the first place with your comment in another thread and it seemed like a great idea so I went with it.

http://forums.iboats.com/showthread.php?t=530820&p=3617368&viewfull=1#post3617368

The best you could do in that regard is add an ACR to keep the starting and house batteries charged.

So yeah, while I thought this all was a bit overkill, it looked to be a viable solution for what I was trying to do. Almost $250 later, we aren't so sure anymore. Ugh.

house load: Livewell(timed circulation, 2a? motor), courtesy lights, radio, fish finder, nav lights, tilt/trim motor, maybe an underwater light at some point.

I'm just going to separate the batteries, put it on the water and see what happens. I can always add a switch later. I just got the boat and had cabin fever so I wanted to mess with it.

 

[Silvertip]

Re: Pictures of your battery systems inc. switches/ACRs?

The ACR was suggested before we knew what the charging output was. It is a very viable option if you have a higher output charging system. All of this has been gone over in detail. It is still an option but the only way you will know if it works is to try it. Rope starting an engine is not an issue. Don't know why that or a single jumper cable on-board is a bother. Jumper cables are available for motorcycles and outboards that are in a neat little pouch about 6 inches in diameter. So here is what we know. You are worried about the starting battery going dead with no accessory loads on it (highly unlikely), you don't want to rope start in an emergency although it is no big deal, you don't want jumper cable(s) on board but you would be willing to swap batteries if you needed to (now which is more convenient?), you want the battery switch but don't want to have to switch it, and you want the ACR but not sure it will work for you, and apparently $10 bucks of Radio Shack parts won't work for you either. So after more than 40 posts and numerous suggestions it would appear we can't help you.

 

[MassillonBuckeye]

Re: Pictures of your battery systems inc. switches/ACRs?

The ACR was suggested before we knew what the charging output was. It is a very viable option if you have a higher output charging system. All of this has been gone over in detail. It is still an option but the only way you will know if it works is to try it. Rope starting an engine is not an issue. Don't know why that or a single jumper cable on-board is a bother. Jumper cables are available for motorcycles and outboards that are in a neat little pouch about 6 inches in diameter. So here is what we know. You are worried about the starting battery going dead with no accessory loads on it (highly unlikely), you don't want to rope start in an emergency although it is no big deal, you don't want jumper cable(s) on board but you would be willing to swap batteries if you needed to (now which is more convenient?), you want the battery switch but don't want to have to switch it, and you want the ACR but not sure it will work for you, and apparently $10 bucks of Radio Shack parts won't work for you either. So after more than 40 posts and numerous suggestions it would appear we can't help you.

You guys are telling me it won't work. I've never used one. I can only go by what you folks are telling me at this point.

I was worried about the starter battery going dead because it was wired in parallel to the house battery. Apparently for ease of charging I don't know. I thought this was a standard system, but understood the risk of draining both batteries with the house load. The P/O didn't have the livewell or radio wired so maybe he could get away with it. Maybe I can't. I won't know until it happens. I was thinking I could prevent that unknown.


How many guys have killed their starter battery because they forgot to flip the battery switch back? More than the amount who don't even have a switch to forget about I can guarantee. Which seemed to be what the ACR would prevent. Until we realized when the charge was detected, the batteries get linked and the starter battery gets drawn down to equalize the loss on the house batt. I would have thought the charge from the motor would overcome that, but maybe not at 5-6-7-8-9 amps depending on RPM?

Why bother with $10 of radio shack parts when you guys are telling me the 7~9a(only at WOT) from the motor isn't going to charge anything anyway?????

Swap a battery in an emergency(very rarely if ever) or lug a pack of cables at all times and probably never use them was my train of thought. I'll try to locate a set with a small footprint. I was thinking of either a loose cable somewhere or a big set of automotive cables. The small ones make more sense. Seems to be something good to have regardless.

I hope I'm not coming off sounding unappreciative or being a goof about this. I appreciate being able to converse with you guys and you understanding what I'm saying.. Even when I may not.. Heh

 

[Silvertip]

Re: Pictures of your battery systems inc. switches/ACRs?

The manual switch diagram I showed and use of an ACR provide two very different chargine scenarios. The ACR relies on a certain set of conditions to be met before it automatically switches. Your low output alternator may (or it may not) prevent that from working as you expect. That aside, do you agree or do you not agree that if your boat had only one battery that the engine would keep it charged with moderate use? Hint -- with the equipment you have I can assure you it would as I've had many boats configured like yours with charging systems like yours. So here is where you are getting wrapped around the axle with this switching stuff. The manual switch I showed in the diagram treats the system as a single battery -- there is no way you can select both -- you charge one or the other. Stop overthinking this. I've pointed out several times as have others, that you can start the engine many dozens of times without ever charging the starting battery so if you select HOUSE the FULL charge current goes to that battery. No matter what you do or what you add to yoru boat -- nothing is 100% fool proof. If you can't remember to turn switches off or set things properly make a checklist. That diagram of mine deals with CHARGING ONLY. It has absolutely nothing to do with killing the starting battery or killing the house battery. Only you can do that by not charging the battery. This becomes even LESS of an issue if you had a dual bank on-board charger, forgot about the ACR and the dual battery switch and used my charging switch diagram. The charger costs much less than the stuff you bought, you plug in at the dock and the dual bank charges both batteries simultaneously. Under way you set the switch to HOUSE and whenever the engine is running the HOUSE battery charges. If you set it to START that battery is charged when the engine is running. Under no circumstances woud both batteries ever be combined. Two things for the record: 1) the engine does not need the battery in order to run. The start battery merely spins the starter. Once the engine is running it creates its own power for the ignition system -- hence the term "magneto ignitiion". 2) NO -- dual batteries permanently connected in parallel is not the "standard" configuration. Don S. gave you a very nice diagram to follow using the stuff you have. So go ahead and use it. But once used, that stuff is not returnable. Your choice. But my system is about as fool proof, cheap and simple as you can possibly get. One last item regarding your charging system. Even though the engine doesn't put out full amperage until nearly wide open throttle, it is charging at something less than 9 amps at slower speeds. While that may not keep up with demand, accessories will run longer if the engine is run periodically than they would if the engine never ran.

 

[MassillonBuckeye]

Re: Pictures of your battery systems inc. switches/ACRs?

Is there any way to wire the alternator to the house battery?

 

[smokeonthewater]

Re: Pictures of your battery systems inc. switches/ACRs?

Is there any way to wire the alternator to the house battery?

again with the OVERTHINKING..... leave the engine charge system on the starting battery and GO FISHING!
Yes there are a few ways and they have been discussed in this thread several times BUT you DO NOT have enough of a charging system to bother with this....

Here is an example for you.... Lets say that you draw 10 amps from the house batt for 5 hours.... that's 50 amp/hrs

Now you start the engine and cruise at 2/3 throttle and charge say 5 amps for say 12 minutes. That's 1 amp/hr.... soo IF we had 100% efficiency which we don't your battery would now be up to 49 amp/hrs under full charge instead of 50.... in the real world have you really gained anything? no, not really.

What if you ran for 2 hours? now you have racked up 10 amp/hrs.... still a pretty small gain for your 8 hr (figuring 30 min each for launch and load) fishing trip

 

[smokeonthewater]

Re: Pictures of your battery systems inc. switches/ACRs?

Here is another example... On my 28' cruiser I run 3 huge house batts and 1 starting batt for both v8 engines and the genset.
I have a more complicated charging system and I can charge the house batts with the engines or the genny BUT I have a 100 amp alternator on each engine.... I can get 50 amp/hrs of charge while running various 12v loads in an hour at just over idle.

On my 20' CC I have the same charge system you do (merc 1150) and the only switch I'm gonna mess with is an on/off master kill switch.
One batt for the engine and one or two for lights (LOTS), GPS, Sonar, radios, livewell, etc...I'll add a 2 bank onboard charger and I'm done.

 

[Silvertip]

Re: Pictures of your battery systems inc. switches/ACRs?

Ahhhh -- did you study my diagram at all? If you did you would see that flipping the switch to HOUSE does exactly that. If you STILL don't want to bother with the switch, eliminate it. Then connect the red wire in the diagram that says CHARGING SYSTEM FROM ENGINE to the HOUSE battery. Same thing! But then the starting battery would not charge. So it appears you really want magic to happen and that isn't realistic. I want to provide a workable option for you but you seem to not want to be bothered with any of this. It would appear that you would be happiest with just paralleling the two batteries and living with the consequences. There would be nothing to do except hooking up the portable charger whenever you are at the dock. Is that a workable scenario? Try it and see. But after all of this conversation I strongly suggest you send back the switch and ACR and ponder this situation a lot more.

 

[MassillonBuckeye]

Re: Pictures of your battery systems inc. switches/ACRs?

No actually. One of my last posts stated I'm about to isolate all batteries and run and see what happens. The whole reason we are having this discussion is because I thought the way the boat was wired(parallel by P/O) was standard and I could tell right away I needed to modify that. Somehow. I had seen the diagrams, but sometimes that stuff doesn't make a lot of sense until you actually apply it, or SEE it which is why I asked for pictures.. Which I still have ZERO in this thread!! lol! I bet all you guys have a big rats nests back at the batteries don't you(not you Silvertip!)! Haha!

The ACR doesn't combine until terminal voltage hits 13v on one of the batteries. So if I hooked the alternator to the house battery, it will keep the starter battery isolated until I get home, and apply whatever charge the motor WILL do to the house battery, unless it tops it off, it will then combine and pass charge to the starter. Since the general consensus seems to be the starter motor doesn't really need it anyhow. Assuming a quick start scenario. Does that make any sense?

You diagram didn't really hit home because I have one major issue.. The only thing coming from the motor to the battery compartment are the battery cables. 1 red, 1 black, dry rotting 4awg wires. I'm lacking the fundamentals here. I haven't had much of a chance to get at her due to weather and schedule.. I think I'm going to go tear into it now. I really need to figure out exactly what I have. Sorry I am so unprepared! I'm trying!!

 

[Silvertip]

Re: Pictures of your battery systems inc. switches/ACRs?

One more time on the charging line. This time I would like you to actually remove the engine cover and find the charging wire. You do that like this:
1) Remove the engine cover.
2) Put your finger on the positive terminal of the STARTING battery.
3) Now follow that cable as it makes it's way into the engine.
4) The point at which that positive battery cable connects is the STARTER SOLENOID.
5) That terminal should also have another smaller wire as well as the large battery cable connected to it.
6) Current flows both ways on the big red cable. When the engine is being started current flows from the battery to the starter via the starter solenoid. When the engine is running the alternator sends its charging current to the battery via that large red battery cable.
To do what I suggested in my diagram you would disconnect the smaller red wire and extend it to the switch. You then have two separate feeds to the batteries. With the switch one way you charge the house battery. The other way the starting battery gets charged. That's the only wire you need to change on the engine. Everything else stays the same except for the new switch and the two new wires.

You will likely NOT get any pictures of electrical systems because there isn't enough room on this page to show a complete setup - even a simple one. Lines on a diagram are the same as a piece of wire.

 

[smokeonthewater]

Re: Pictures of your battery systems inc. switches/ACRs?

well when the O/P starts mocking those that are trying so hard to explain something it's time for me to spend my time helping someone else.... best of luck


I'm out

 

[MassillonBuckeye]

Re: Pictures of your battery systems inc. switches/ACRs?

well when the O/P starts mocking those that are trying so hard to explain something it's time for me to spend my time helping someone else.... best of luck


I'm out

Maybe come back when you have a sense of humor. I was just poking fun since noone was posting pictures. CYA!!

I didn't mean to sound snooty here but cmon, have a sense of humor! I know I'm getting on you guys nerves with my redundant questions but I'm trying. Been snowing and rain so haven't torn into it enough yet. I'm not taking the thing somewhere to have a guy make a few connections and charge me $200! We can do this!!

 

[MassillonBuckeye]

Re: Pictures of your battery systems inc. switches/ACRs?

One more time on the charging line. This time I would like you to actually remove the engine cover and find the charging wire. You do that like this:
1) Remove the engine cover.
2) Put your finger on the positive terminal of the STARTING battery.
3) Now follow that cable as it makes it's way into the engine.
4) The point at which that positive battery cable connects is the STARTER SOLENOID.
5) That terminal should also have another smaller wire as well as the large battery cable connected to it.
6) Current flows both ways on the big red cable. When the engine is being started current flows from the battery to the starter via the starter solenoid. When the engine is running the alternator sends its charging current to the battery via that large red battery cable.
To do what I suggested in my diagram you would disconnect the smaller red wire and extend it to the switch. You then have two separate feeds to the batteries. With the switch one way you charge the house battery. The other way the starting battery gets charged. That's the only wire you need to change on the engine. Everything else stays the same except for the new switch and the two new wires.

You will likely NOT get any pictures of electrical systems because there isn't enough room on this page to show a complete setup - even a simple one. Lines on a diagram are the same as a piece of wire.

Gotcha. I'll do that. Messed around with it a bit last night. I wouldn't call the elec. system Totally hacked, just Mostly hacked. This should be fun

Thanks for your help and your patience.