Please tell me my outdrive isn't toast

Beefer

Lieutenant Commander
Joined
Aug 4, 2008
Messages
1,737
Re: Please tell me my outdrive isn't toast

yeah, some of you guys on here crack me up, no offense beefer, you are in Floria, I'm in freeking Albuquerque! Just kidding, I like it here, but its not the mecca for good boat mechanics or cheap parts that's for sure. Thanks for the info though. I'll get it apart and see where I go from there.

If you or a mechanic have access to a press and a metal lathe, you can order the sleeve and put it on yourself. Was there when my mechanic did it, and it was a piece of cake with those 2 tools. If you need a part number for the sleeve, PM me, and I'll try and get the number for you.
 

rad1026

Chief Petty Officer
Joined
May 1, 2006
Messages
443
Re: Please tell me my outdrive isn't toast

Okay guys, back on topic. I got myself a bearing retainer wrench and got my u-joint carrier assembly out yesterday. I inspected the bearings and housing for any scaring or damage. Every thing looked fine. Replaced the o-ring and put the assembly back together, torqued down to specified lbs and hooked up my little bicycle pump. I'm still getting air leakage at the front bearing retainer. I don't know why it would be leaking. I took it apart again to inspect a little closer and now see some pitting on the Carrier Assembly, Oil Seal. Part number 30:

http://boatinfo.no/lib/mercruiser/manuals/mercruiser6.html#/50

I am wondering if this is causing the leak. I don't see any kind of pitting or rust or anything else on the carrier assembly and am wondering how this would happen on this specific part, but it is there somehow. I doubt that I should try to clean up the pitting with some light emery cloth. What do you all think?
 

ziggy

Admiral
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Jun 30, 2004
Messages
7,473
Re: Please tell me my outdrive isn't toast

I inspected the bearings and housing for any scaring or damage
how did you inspect the bearings? by disassembling it? taking the nut off the driver gear u joint yoke and putting the bearings out for inspection?
IMG_2575.jpg

the s/m tells you what is non acceptable for inspection. i replaced my brg.s because of bluing. they got to hot.

Every thing looked fine. Replaced the o-ring and put the assembly back together
i think there's another seal other than the o ring. the seal that rides on the drive gear ujoint yoke.. i don't read that you replaced the seal. item #20 from here.
IMG_2632.jpg

this one.
when i did mine, i got the assembly (just like the above pic) which looks like item #19. the oring is for the od of this piece if i remember correctly.
 

rad1026

Chief Petty Officer
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May 1, 2006
Messages
443
Re: Please tell me my outdrive isn't toast

No Ziggy, I did not remove the nut because I was not confident in setting the proper bearing pre-load when reassembling. Sounds like I'm going to have to get it taken apart and replace the other seal. Thanks for the response, that helps. So what is involved in putting the assembly back together, what other special tools will I need?
 

achris

More fish than mountain goat
Joined
May 19, 2004
Messages
27,468
Re: Please tell me my outdrive isn't toast

A good inch/lbs torque indicator...
 

rad1026

Chief Petty Officer
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May 1, 2006
Messages
443
Re: Please tell me my outdrive isn't toast

don't you need a dial indicator to get the 6-10 lbs of preload? I'm reading the manual on that part and I'm not sure I understand how you torque the pinon nut to 70-80 lbs, but then only had 6-10 lbs of preload on the bearing?
 

achris

More fish than mountain goat
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May 19, 2004
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27,468
Re: Please tell me my outdrive isn't toast

You're reading the procedure for 2 different set ups. The 70-80ft/lb is for bearing packs WITH the internal spacer and the 6-10in/lb is for bearing packs WITHOUT the internal spacer....
 

rad1026

Chief Petty Officer
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Messages
443
Re: Please tell me my outdrive isn't toast

oh man, you're right! How cool, I can definitely do that. Easy. So they show the set up in the vice with the Bearing Retainer wrench. I don't get that, is that just showing a way to hold the assembly in the vice?
 

Don S

Honorary Moderator Emeritus
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Aug 31, 2004
Messages
62,321
Re: Please tell me my outdrive isn't toast

Yes. Not only for holding while tightening, but also while checking rolling torque.
 

telstar1

Petty Officer 1st Class
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Jun 20, 2008
Messages
226
Re: Please tell me my outdrive isn't toast

I personally have never laid eyes on an inch lbs torque wrench. Just wrap some twine around the assembly,hold shaft still,and pull on twine with a trout scale.If the radius of the assenbly(1/2 dia) is 2 inches and you get a 5 lb reading thatll be 10 inch lbs.Where did I get this? I dreamed it up and it always seems to work out fine.
 

achris

More fish than mountain goat
Joined
May 19, 2004
Messages
27,468
Re: Please tell me my outdrive isn't toast

I personally have never laid eyes on an inch lbs torque wrench. ....

Now you have.... :D

attachment.php


Where did I get this? I dreamed it up....

Congratulations. You have just invented the wheel... Oh wait, that's already been done. Same as your dream, millions before you have done the same thing. I did it as a kid before I could afford a torque wrench, back in the 70s...
 

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rad1026

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Re: Please tell me my outdrive isn't toast

Ok guys I am back on my project. I had a chance this morning to press out the drive gear and inspect the tapered roller bearings. Tell me what you think. First pic is the race of one of the roller bearings. There is some pitting as you can see.

Next pic is of the rollers, there is some wear.

Third pic is of oil seal surface on u-joint, there is pitting, I will definitely replace this and the oil seal.

Fourth pic is of bearing race on inside of top cover. Again, some pitting. The bearing itself looked good to me, but this pitting concerns me.

So what do you think? What is normal wear after 6 years? Am I looking at replacing all bearings and races?

Also on pic 5 of the drive gear and bearing assembly I do not see that I have the part "d" preload spacer. There was just nothing there when I disassembled the the bearing. I have both bearings, cups and spacer, but no preload spacer, how could that be? I'm kind of getting bummed out here now because of all the pitting I am seeing. I removed the upper drive shaft and driven gear and the lower bearing and cup look good there, no pitting.
 

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achris

More fish than mountain goat
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Re: Please tell me my outdrive isn't toast

ok.. .You have no inner spacer because you have the later bearing pack, the one that is set up with 6-10 in-lb of rolling torque. The bad news it those outer bearing races are US, and that's not United States. There are just about to peel off all the case hardened surface and distribute bearing material throughout the drive. Time to replace them, and for that you are going to need the shim tools. And before you ask, there is no other way of doing it. The new bearings MUST be set up with the shim tools. The yoke is sleeve-able, with a speedi-sleeve. They are made by a company called Chicago-Rawhide, now owned by SKF, the bearing people.

Normal wear for 6 years? Nope, that's water damage....

Chris.......
 

Bondo

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Re: Please tell me my outdrive isn't toast

So what do you think? What is normal wear after 6 years? Am I looking at replacing all bearings and races?

Ayuh,.... I agree with Chris,... Looks like it sat with water in it....

I'm guessin', that the price of parts is gonna be nearin' that of an SEI replacement drive....
 

rad1026

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Re: Please tell me my outdrive isn't toast

so I could take care of the tapered roller bearings and the yoke and seal and then maybe have my local mechanic set up the shims for final reassembly. I see the procedure for driven gear shimming and it calls for special tool 91-60526. It doesn't look like a particularly complicated procedure. Is this the shimming you are talking about achris?
 

achris

More fish than mountain goat
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Re: Please tell me my outdrive isn't toast

Yes, that the shimming I'm talking about. It's not difficult, if you have the right tools. It does take a bit of time too... The tool you listed is for the driven gear, which would only need it's preload set (shimming under the bearing race in the top cover). Because you'll be replacing the drive gear bearing pack, it's that one that would need the shims checked... Talk to your local shop, he may be willing to just do the shims if you've done the rest of the work....

Chris........
 

ziggy

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Re: Please tell me my outdrive isn't toast

fwiw, achris and bondo are more pros than me, i've learned much of what i know from them. but 'll comment anyways.

from memory of reading the s/m + doing the double brg. set + R&Ring the driven gear top brg. there's shimming for the driven gear and drive gear. if i'm not mistaken. you'll have to check driven gear height if ya R&R the top brg. + check rolling torque with the dial indicator in. lb. torque wrench. (if you adj. the shim in the top cap brg. race, you'll have to add or remove from the bottom race)
then if ya change anything other than the seal on the drive gear yoke, you'll need to check that for shimming also.

fwiw, i didn't have the tools to R&R the top brg and race on the driven gear shaft. so i had my local dealer do that one. they checked the driven gear height with their special tool. i got to use there tools to see that the driven gear shaft preload was right with their tools (yes, more special tools).
i did the shimming with of the drive gear yoke. driving gear shaft didn't get changed that perticular time. oddly, the shim stack stayed the same.
for that matter, when i R&Red the driven gear top brg and race, that shimming didn't change either...

i been waiting to mention this since i did the driven gear job. my local mercruiser mech. told me, (right or wrong) that the reason the shimming is necessary is because they (mercruiser) don't make the housings quite the same ea. time their made, hence the need to shim. once it's correct. 'usually' even if you change the gears or brgs. the shimming stays the same. weather or not that's true, i don't know. but i will say, my shims didn't change albeit the new brgs. i didn't change any gears.

maybe a real tech will comment on what i was told and either confirm or deny that it's a fact.

guess when it comes down to it, i am happy i made sure the shimming was correct by going through the process one way or the other, me doing it (with borrowed mercruiser tools) or by paying my local mercruiser tech to do the job for me.

if yer gonna do the shimming, read the s/m very close for proper procedure. at least for me that was the case, i read it over and over prior to doing any shimming.

fwiw. i found when shimming that .025 goes in with a little resistance, .024'' slides in too easy and .026'' wouldn't go in.
 

achris

More fish than mountain goat
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27,468
Re: Please tell me my outdrive isn't toast

Ziggy is correct. The housings, being cast ali, have manufacturing tolerances, hence the need for the shims in the first place. Bearings and gears (being forged steel) are made to MUCH tighter tolerances (in the order of 1/10th of a thou) and will USUALLY not need to have the shims changed.

You shouldn't need to change the shims under the driven gear as you haven't replaced it or it's bearing. You'll need to check it's pre-load though (that's adjusted by the shims under the top bearing, in the cap). That could have changed with time and bearing 'bedding'. Did you pull the driven gear out and look at it's bearing?

Chris........
 

dockwrecker

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Mar 10, 2006
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I live In ABQ also. Best boat mech's in town is D+M marine if you get totally frustrated. Great guys, both Merc master mechanics.
 

rad1026

Chief Petty Officer
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May 1, 2006
Messages
443
Re: Please tell me my outdrive isn't toast

yes I did remove the driven gear and both the gear and the cup look good. If you look at the picture of the cup in the top cover I think it needs to be replaced. So it looks like my best option would be to get the drive gear set up with new bearings and seals and then see if I can have my local guy do the shim set up. I do have a couple questions. The tapered roller bearings are a Timken 386A with the 382A race or cup. I can find that set up pretty inexpensively, about $30. Can I search by using the Timken parts directly or do I have to buy the bearings through a Merc distributor? I guess what I'm asking is if there is a marine specific bearing or if I can just find the correct Timken bearing and find it a lot cheaper. Also, I am wondering what type of lube I should use in the u-joints. Is there a special lube for the sealed u-joint? Mine are the newer type that are sealed with no zirk fitting. Thanks for all the feedback. I know I could do the shimming If I had the tools, but even used tools are expensive. I am hoping this is a one time deal and I never let this happen again.

Hey dockwrecker, nice to see another boater from Alb. I have not used D&M. I like Taylor, but he is very expensive. I will give them a call.
 
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