should pete rose make it into

[Ralph 123]

Re: should pete rose make it into

gaugeguy If it was just about the money Pete would be in today. He still draws huge crowds and his book shot up to #1 upon its release. You want to see turnout? Hire Pete to manage your team.<br /><br />Gambling almost killed this sport once, the people who run it now know that and aren't going to let it happen on their watch.<br /><br />If Pete had come clean and beg for forgiveness 14 years ago he may have earned reinstatement. Who knows. But he lied and viciously attacked people for 14 years - he is not remorseful or repentant at all.<br /><br />Isn't Daryl Strawberry banned for life for drugs too?

 

[gaugeguy]

Re: should pete rose make it into

It's so funny. "Baseball's integrity" and "Baseball is bigger than the sum of all it's parts"...baloney. Baseball can be shut down tomorrow if the players union decides to strike or the owners decide to lock out the players. The game has no integrity, but I'll follow it because I enjoy it. And I hate the Yankees

 

[Ralph 123]

Re: should pete rose make it into

I agree - baseball is just a game. However, you and I both know that guys like us learn some of our most important life lessons playing it and other sports as kids. Kids look up to these guys, especially young teens. They figure they can do things if there heros do them.<br />Look how many people justified their bad behavior by saying things like, well the President did it so can I.

 

[gaugeguy]

Re: should pete rose make it into

I agree. I loved to play baseball as a kid. "Bet we are gonna win tonight!", how many times did I say that? Hopefully I will raise my boys well enough that they do not look to pro atheletes as role models. Not a lot of "stand up" guys out there in any sport, more thugs and gangsters than anything else. Couldn't care less about anything, as long as they get paid.

 

[pjc]

Re: should pete rose make it into

ya know, some of this discussion sounds very plywoodish.<br /><br />"it's all about the kids. you can't do that 'cause it's going to harm the children--yadayada"<br /><br />I suspect most kids,those young enough to be influenced, are not familiar with Rose and the whole fiasco.<br /><br />imo, Rose was busted, denied it, now is busted again for lying. Ban Him.<br /><br />--once more, Ban Him--all together now, Ban Him

 

[Ralph 123]

Re: should pete rose make it into

If you don't think the youth of America are heavily influenced by sports and sports heros you are living in a very different America. Heck, how many American boys collect baseball cards? Why do you think companies like Nike spend millions for sport hero endorsements? Who do you think goes to Copperstown?

 

[oddjob]

Re: should pete rose make it into

But he lied and viciously attacked people for 14 years

Ralph, could you give some examples,quotes and names of these people in hopes of jaring my memory . Your pretty good at this with politics.

 

[Ralph 123]

Re: should pete rose make it into

Just read LF's post above. The C&P article. There are 1 or 2 people in particular that were espically savaged. Their names were mentioned a lot here on Sportstalk but the names escape me.<br /><br />

Due to the overwhelming negative response from media and fans alike over Rose's method of coming clean after 14 years of belligerent denials - not to mention suspicions of Rose's motives - Selig is not likely to reverse course and reinstate him at this juncture.<br />

 

[Carphunter]

Re: should pete rose make it into

Ralph, you keep saying that I can't justify bad behavior by pointing to other bad behavior, yet how can I draw any conclusions without comparing what baseball has done to others in the past who have cheated?<br /><br />These are just my opinions, nothing more. A cheater, is a cheater, is a cheater, if some forms of cheating are allowed, and you can get in the HOF, then Pete should be allowed in, (Especially since it is not proven that he gambled while playing). All forms of cheating should get you banned from baseball, not just Gambling. To you and others, gambling may be the cardinal sin in baseball, personally, I think drug abuse is much worse.<br /><br />And to answer the question you put to me, I would have just as much trouble telling the youth of America that Gambling on baseball is wrong when you are a manager, as I would telling my two young boys that Sammy Sosa is a cheater with a corked bat. (BTW - I did have to explain to my boys that Sammy is a cheater, and they don't quite understand why he has been allowed to keep playing...................and neither do I).<br /><br />I have to compare bad behavior to other bad behavior for comparisons only. If Baseball was to ban certain players for what I consider cheating, half of the HOF would have to be emptied.<br /><br />Baseball sets the rules for their league, and apparently gambling is the worst thing you can do.<br /><br />Murders, rapists, drug addicts, guys who use corked bats, ect, ect, ect, ............let 'em all in, but if somebody gambles.....look out. <br /><br />Thats just ridiculous in my opinion, and another reason for me not to watch MLB.

 

[Ralph 123]

Re: should pete rose make it into

It took the shock of hearing former commissioner Fay Vincent say Tuesday on ESPN that several writers - including USA Today's Hal Bodley, who was tight with Rose when he played - have told Vincent that Rose bet on baseball while he played for the Cincinnati Reds and Philadelphia Phillies.<br /><br />It took Rose removing all doubt about whether he bet on baseball as a manager - doubt he so convincingly built with God knows how many offended, "I'm-not-that-stupid" denials - for my doubts to rise. The bloom is completely off this Rose. Finally, Shoeless Pete is fair game.<br /><br />

http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/sports/7665467.htm <br /><br />Does that change your thinking Carp?

 

[POINTER94]

Re: should pete rose make it into

Carphunter,<br /><br />I guess I would agree with you. All those who can be proven cheated should be out of the HOF. A record gotten dishonestly or outside the rules, is not a record.<br /><br />This is a shrine for hero's and sportsmen. Not the logical conclusion to a successful deception. It is a place to remember those who improved the game, not decieved it. If Sosa, is proven to have hit a homer with a corked bat then good bye HOF. But do we throw out anyone who threw a spitball, hid a file in his hat, or is that something that affects a game and not the game?<br /><br />I am not qualified to assign weight to each specific offence. I will say should the Dodgers call me up and offer me $1 million a year I would make sure not to place a bet.... ever. <br /><br />Dispite his great play on the field, I think that Pete's conduct over-shadow's his accomplishments and actually makes him an embarrassment to the sport. That can be debated but you won't change my mind. If you ask a kid today who Rose is, do you think they would answer the all-time base hit leader or a lying old man that can't get into the HOF. <br /><br />In or out, Pete has secured his legacy. Shame.

 

[mellowyellow]

Re: should pete rose make it into

to repeat:<br />when he was busted, pete owed $500K to the mob.<br />MLB can never, ever, ever allow that kind of<br />outside influence into the game.<br />put yourself in his shoes. sorry, can't just<br />claim bankruptcy. <br />it's different than just being a bad guy IMO.<br /><br />if it were up to me, he would have an empty locker<br />at the hall that explained fully why he can never<br />be inshrined. <br /><br />PS. he was one of MY favorite players growing up.

 

[Ralph 123]

Re: should pete rose make it into

The only reason that Rose should be out is Rule 21(d):<br /><br />Anyone associated with baseball who places a bet on baseball will be found permanently ineligible.<br /><br />Everyone knows that rule. It's in every major league clubhouse. Even Rose himself admitted in Sports Illustrated (through the excerpts of his new book, "My Prison without Bars") that he gambled because he didn't think he would be caught.<br /><br />But the thing is, good or bad, Rule 21(d) is still a rule, one that Rose knew and subsequently broke.<br /><br />In no way, shape, or form should Pete Rose go into the Hall of Fame or ever be allowed to participate in baseball. The rule, bad or good, was broken willingly. He may cry and profess all sorts of sorrow. He might even tell us how good he is for baseball and how much he loves the game. While that may all be true - and who am I to dispute it? - it's irrelevant.<br /><br />The rule was broken and the punishment should continue to be served. To re-instate Rose is to spit on the basic premises of baseball and to say that the rules only apply to players who don't have 4,000 hits.<br /><br /> http://story.theinsiders.com/a.z?s=189&p=2&c=221842 <br /><br />

I guess it has become the American thing to do to honor rule breakers and liars

 

[gaugeguy]

Re: should pete rose make it into

Pete Rose's Major Records <br />All-time Major League record for most career hits-4,256<br /><br />All-time Major League record for most games played-3,562<br /><br />All-time Major League record for most at bats-14,053<br /><br />All-time Major League record for most singles-3,315<br /><br />All-time Major League record for most total bases by a switch hitter-5,752<br /><br />All-time Major League record for most seasons of 200 or more hits-10<br /><br />All-time Major League record for most consecutive seasons of 100 or more hits-23<br /><br />All-time Major League record for most seasons with 600 or more at bats-17<br /><br />All-time Major League record for most seasons with 150 or more games played--17<br /><br />All-time Major League record for most seasons with 100 or more games played-23<br /><br />Only player in Major League history to play more than 500 games at five different<br />Positions-1B (939) 2B (628) 3B (634) LF (671) RF (595)<br /><br />Major League record for playing in the most winning games-1,972<br /><br />All-time National League record for most years played-24<br /><br />All-time National League record for most consecutive years played-24<br /><br />All-time National League record for most career runs-2,165<br /><br />All-time National League record for most career doubles-746<br /><br />All-time National League record for most games with 5 or more hits-10<br /><br />Modern National League record for longest consecutive game hitting streak-44<br /><br />Modern National League Record for most consecutive game hitting streaks of 20 <br />or more games--7<br /><br />Pretty amazing stuff, probably some will stand forever, not done with performance enhancing drugs.

 

[Ralph 123]

Re: should pete rose make it into

not done with performance enhancing drugs

Would you take HIS word for that? <br /><br />Ok, so what you are saying is all that counts is the numbers. Not betting as a player. Not betting a manager. Not lying to the world for 14 years. Not wether he is sorry or not. Honor has not place in the HOF I guess.<br /><br />Reinstate him. Let him be voted upon. Let him manage agin. No problem.

 

[gaugeguy]

Re: should pete rose make it into

Nope not saying that at all, and I wouldn't take his word for anything, the guy is a total self absorbed scumbag. I think it is more like having a marriage annulled when there was a child born. Does that mean the child doesn't exist? It's the baseball hall of fame, not the ehtics hall of fame. I don't know if he deserves to be there or not, but the nuumbers cannot be denied. It would be interesting to see how he would fare if the voters had a vote. I think it would be close. He may not even make it on his first few ballots.

 

[mellowyellow]

Re: should pete rose make it into

how does a guy accomplish the summit in his career,<br />"All-time Major League record for most career hits-4,256"<br />and be dumb enuff to lose $500K gambling??? <br /><br />perhaps to me, personally, I am having a real hard<br />time with how he finally came clean. he has had<br />a few really good opportunities over the last couple<br />years, but he was steadfast in his denial.<br />(i.e. all century team at world series)<br />anyone remember his response when confronted?<br />add to this the HUGE paycheck he got for book.<br />sorry, it smells funny to me and I just ain't gonna<br />eat it, thank you...

 

[Carphunter]

Re: should pete rose make it into

Ralph, I hope you aren't saying that I think its ok to honor rule breakers and liars. I say all cheaters should be banned, not just the ones that do a certain type of cheating, IMO. <br /><br />My point is that no cheating should be allowed.........period. Treat all cheating the same.<br /><br />Personally, I don't think Pete should be in the HOF, but then you would have to take many others out. Take all the other cheaters out of the HOF, then I can understand leaving Pete out.<br /><br />If the cardinal rule, that you don't break in baseball, is gambling, then I think it should be changed to cheating. Any form of cheating should get you banned, not just gambling. Gambling is cheating, absolutely, but so are many other things. <br /><br />Please enlighten me as to why all forms of cheating don't get you banned from baseball, 'cause thats what I don't understand, I guess.<br /><br />BTW, I absolutely understand your point of view.

 

[Ralph 123]

Re: should pete rose make it into

It is not supposed to be a place that worships just the numbers. That is why you have to be voted in. <br /><br />His numbers and accomplishment are already part of the HOF and part of the official record of baseball - so his accomplishments are already honored. <br /><br />When you get inducted the man and his accomplishment get honored.<br /><br />And... that does it for me on this one.

 

[Carphunter]

Re: should pete rose make it into

Don't leave yet Ralph!!!!<br /><br />I do have a serious question for ya.<br />Do you think Sammy should have been banned from Baseball? <br /><br />If yes or no, why?<br /><br />This is not a set-up type question, I am just truly interested in your opinion.<br /><br />Hey, I thought this was a good discussion. Over 100 posts and no poofs! <br /><br />We can all play nice when we want to.....right?