Use the Sherman anti-trust act

RubberFrog

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Re: Use the Sherman anti-trust act

Man this sucks. Qc is gettin soft. Who's gonna laugh at my bomb throwing now?
 

QC

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Re: Use the Sherman anti-trust act

Gotta keep you guys guessing a little, no? :)
 

PW2

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Re: Use the Sherman anti-trust act

The fundamental difference between a liberal and a conservative is that a liberal understands the world is a complex place with complex problems, and rarely if ever simple solutions have any substative effect, and those that identify the sole "cause" of a compex problem are virtually always wrong.<br /><br />A classic example of this is drilling in ANWR. Frankly, I have no real problem with drilling in ANWR from a purely environmental perspective, except that it will do next to nothing regarding our dependence on foreign oil, and it completely ignores the fundamental energy problems we face.<br /><br />The same with blaming environmentalists for the percieved lack of new refineries. Economics require new refinery capacity to be located with access to gas pipelines, as it is too expensive to build new pipelines, and why spend billions of new dollars on a soon to be obsolete technology, when you can milk this existing refinery cash cow for another few decades at least. Radical environmentalists have virtually nothing to do with it, but it is always handy, and makes for entertaining talk radio, to have something or someone to demonize and blame.
 

QC

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Re: Use the Sherman anti-trust act

Good points PW2 with the exception of your definition of conservatives. A non-Mother's Day spirit response would be, if I was going to make one . . . that Liberals are those who have determined they are too smart for simple solutions, so they blather on to make sure you know how smart they are . . . ;) I know, I used to think that way . . . <br /><br />Conservatives are those who have figured out that all of the supposed complex solutions do nothing but cause inaction.
 

POINTER94

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Re: Use the Sherman anti-trust act

Not that my critique is worth anything, cuz i is 2 suupid 2 git anyting bet de stuf in ma fase. <br /><br />But that could be your worst explaination of anything on any subject, ever. I heard a similar explaination by the ever insightful and intellectual Al Franken on why Liberal radio is such a joke. That was his rationalization for his failure. Blame the audience. I value your insights even when I don't agree, you make a solid arguements for your position frequently. You are better than that tripe.<br /><br />For 10 years they have been trying to build a new refinery in AZ, still waiting on permits, and not a shovel of dirt turned towards the construction. GW's suggestion of using old air force bases seems to have been lost. I wonder why? Locations are available everywhere. CA, AZ, TX, LA, OR.
 

PW2

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Re: Use the Sherman anti-trust act

So your solution, QC, is to do something that won't work simply because it is easier to get agreement to do it? That does explain a goodly share of W's administration.<br /><br />And I have no idea of which project you are refering to Pointer, but simply applying for a permit does not automatically guarantee it will be issued--there may be reasons.<br /><br />And if I was an oil company stockholder (and I am) I would complain bitterly if some Yahoo at Exxon wanted to fritter away billions of dollars of my equity on a refinery at some abandoned military base without the existing infrastructure to support it.
 

POINTER94

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Re: Use the Sherman anti-trust act

Took 10 years to get through the paperwork and about 30 million dollars, but looks like we might just get one built.<br /><br />First new US refinery in 30 years to be built in Arizona<br />22-11-05 The Mexican government will permit construction and operation of a pipeline to deliver crude oil to a proposed new Arizona gasoline refinery that would be the first such project built in the United States in nearly 30 years, the company behind the project said. <br />Arizona Clean Fuels Yuma said it has reached an understanding with a Mexican ministry, the Secretariat of Energy of Mexico, regarding the pipeline, an offloading facility for tanker ships and a tank farm for temporary storage of oil. <br /><br />David Traenor, a spokesman for Scottsdale-based Arizona Clean Fuels, called the understanding an important milestone for the project planned in south-western Arizona, with construction planned to start in late 2006 and be done in 2010. Traenor said the offloading facility would be located on the western coast of either Sonora or Baja California and that the company is now negotiating with Pemex, Mexico's state-owned oil company, for crude oil to supply the refinery. <br />Though crude from countries other than Mexico also could be used, "we anticipate them being a major supplier," Traenor said of Pemex. <br /><br />The refinery in eastern Yuma County would be Arizona's first. Most gasoline now used in Arizona is carried by pipelines from California and Texas. The Arizona Clean Fuels facility could produce approximately 150,000 bpd of motor fuels, including approximately 85,000 bpd of gasoline, 35,000 bpd of diesel fuel and 30,000 bpd of jet fuel. <br />Traenor said the company is now considering financing proposals for the $ 3.4 bn project and is working on obtaining the remaining environmental permits needed for pipeline pumping stations and other facilities. <br /><br />The company earlier this year received the required US air quality permits. Arizona Clean Fuels is partnering with Newport Beach, California-based WesPac Pipelines to build and operate the offloading facility, tank farm and pipeline. <br />Traenor said the company is now considering two proposed sites for the offloading facility: Puerto Libertad in Sonora and Punta Colonet in Baja California. The Baja California site is preferred because its location on the Pacific Ocean would accommodate bigger tankers with deeper drafts than would be possible in the shallower Gulf of California, Traenor said. <br /><br />The US House on Oct. 7 narrowly approved a bill which supporters said would encourage oil companies to open new refineries by streamlining permits for refineries and opening federal lands, including closed military bases, for future refinery construction. <br />No new refinery has been built since 1976. The refinery would be located on 1,450 acres along Interstate 8 about 40 miles east of Yuma. Arizona Clean Fuels picked the Yuma County site after abandoning plans to get approval for a site in Maricopa County. <br /><br /><br />Source: Associated Press<br /><br /><br />Just a little backdrop.<br /><br />But getting an oil refinery built is next to impossible, hence the 30-year construction drought. There will always be environmental activists who fight any new proposed refinery, regardless of where it might be located and how environmentally safe it is. And our environmental rules give them the upper hand. <br /><br />The environmental impact-report process mobilizes the "not in my back yard" elements to oppose any proposed refinery, but it does not mobilize people or groups who are looking at national energy needs. You wind up with a very lopsided discussion where potential problems are thoroughly and perhaps overly represented, but the only group pointing out the benefits of the refinery is the "evil" oil company asking to build it - even though every automobile driver would benefit. <br /><br />Consider the example of Arizona Clean Fuels, which has been trying to build a small refinery outside Yuma for almost 10 years. It took five years just to get air-quality permits. Now they hope to be operational in 2010, 15 years after they started the project. <br /><br />source: http://www.reason.org/commentaries/moore_20050901.shtml
 

txswinner

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Re: Use the Sherman anti-trust act

Shortage of oil and refinery? Anyone experienced a problem buying gasoline or just the price? I live for the pop when some peoples heads are pulled out. At least we are down to the 30% who did not wish to know the truth just that what they have been told is true. I wonder how much of the population of Germany bought into the Nazi party?
 

txswinner

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Re: Use the Sherman anti-trust act

I reread much of this and my thread started about breaking up the big 5 to make for competition and ended up with the right crying EPA and left wing liberals.<br /><br />Well folks for 6 years this government has been in control of the W administration with a Rep. congress. We have seen the control and the results. They get all the credit and all the blame. <br /><br />W and his administration control EPA, OSHA, FEMA, Homeland and how have they worked out. These people can and are hired and fired at will by the administration.<br /><br />All I am saying is that if a refinery can not be built because of EPA (which I doubt) then the administration is to blame. The Democrats have no control ie see the supreme court.<br /><br />To blame anything on anyone but W is simply the refusal to accept credit for what a great position our country is now in.
 

QC

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Re: Use the Sherman anti-trust act

Originally posted by txswinner:<br /> All I am saying is that if a refinery can not be built because of EPA (which I doubt) then the administration is to blame.
So let me get this straight. You're blaming Bush for not dismantling the EPA fast enough? How about local agencies, state agencies, lawsuits? Environmental impact reports, liability, class action suits? All his fault too? Man he is one powerful son of a gun . . . Thanks for setting me straight. Wish you had pointed that all out before :rolleyes: <br /><br />Oh, oh, and with all of that gutted and the oil companies on a fast track to new refineries, you would consider them our friends? Wait, wait, he isn't doing that because his pockets are lined by the oil companies . . . ? Hmmmmmmmmmm.<br /><br />Sorry all, moment of weakness . . .
 

jimonica

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Re: Use the Sherman anti-trust act

"Man he is one powerful son of a gun . . ."<br /><br />Oh, and the environmental groups are powerful son of a guns also. :rolleyes: Just drive down K street and you won't find one single BMW or Lexus. All you see are Volkswagen micro buses decorated with peace signs and daisies. Go to any of DC's five star restaurants and you won't find a single politician or lobbyist. Because they're all having lunch at the local vegetarian restaurant with some enviro wacko dressed in beads, headband and Jesus creepers on his feet. <br /><br />There is a lot of strange things happening in Washington with these enviro wackos taking over the town and all. Not the least of which, the smell of patuly oil and hashish filling the air. But, the other day I saw where two VW beetles covered with peace signs, had run a BMW up on the curb and the occupants of the VWs had the BMW driver up against the fender of his car roughing him up pretty nastily.<br /><br />Yes indeed, these environmentalist are well organized, well funded and ruthless. And worst of all, they have this administration in their back pocket. Everyone knows that the secret closed door meeting to write our energy policy, wasn't really attended by oil executives, but leaders of Greenpeace and The Sierra Club. But they better watch out because we're on to them. :rolleyes: :)
 

heycods

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Re: Use the Sherman anti-trust act

Nuke the enviromentalist. :eek: :eek: :D Sorry frog I just couldnt resist ;) :p
 

txswinner

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Re: Use the Sherman anti-trust act

How can a site for people who supposedly love the outdoors be so anti-conservationist?
 

POINTER94

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Re: Use the Sherman anti-trust act

Big plastic is sticking it to us. <br /><br />PVC up 43% since September. Anyone having any trouble finding any? <br /><br />I have found out that GW, is actually behind this. The other day GW had a Dasani water. This product was actually made hundreds of miles away from DC but the driver of the truck who delivered it to the store, (and subsequently purchased by the white house staff), used to live in ohio where his neighbor had a sister in law who married a guy who had the same number of letters in his last name as VP Cheney. Now here is the direct connection, he was seen drinking a Dasani as well as working for PW pipe who actually manufactures and sells PVC pipe. In addition, he lives in Oregon which is one of the states that GW is president over. <br /><br />It's all so clear. Oh, yea I agree with the ever so wise one, GW is definately a Nazi. So glad I got that in. That GW must think we are all idiots not to see how he is so clearly in bed with big plastic. <br /><br />I just love the sound of the velcro when the nice young men remove the hockey mask and loosen up the arms of the white jacket with the long sleeves.
 

txswinner

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Re: Use the Sherman anti-trust act

Darn got it wrong again, PVC is not plastic, it is polyvinylchloride another polymer. You can not even get it right even when you are trying to be funny.
 

POINTER94

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Re: Use the Sherman anti-trust act

Poly(vinyl chloride) is the plastic known at the hardware store as PVC. This is the PVC from which pipes are made, and PVC pipe is everywhere. The plumbing in your house is probably PVC pipe, unless it's an older house. PVC pipe is what rural high schools with small budgets use to make goal posts for their football fields. But there's more to PVC than just pipe. The "vinyl" siding used on houses is made of poly(vinyl chloride). Inside the house, PVC is used to make linoleum for the floor. In the seventies, PVC was often used to make vinyl car tops. <br />PVC is useful because it resists two things that hate each other: fire and water. Because of its water resistance it's used to make raincoats and shower curtains, and of course, water pipes. It has flame resistance, too, because it contains chlorine. When you try to burn PVC, chlorine atoms are released, and chlorine atoms inhibit combustion. <br /><br />Structurally, PVC is a vinyl polymer. (well, duh!) It's similar to polyethylene, but on every other carbon in the backbone chain, one of the hydrogen atoms is replaced with a chlorine atom. It's produced by the free radical polymerization of vinyl chloride. <br /><br />History:<br /><br />So in 1912 one German chemist, Fritz Klatte decided to try to do something with it, and reacted some acetylene with hydrochloric acid (HCl). Now, this reaction will produce vinyl chloride, but at that time no one knew what to do with it, so he put it on the shelf, where it polymerized over time. Not knowing what to do with the PVC he had just invented, he told his bosses at his company, Greisheim Electron, who had the material patented in Germany. They never figured out a use for PVC, and in 1925 their patent expired. <br /><br />Wouldn't you know it, in 1926 the very next year, an American chemist, Waldo Semon was working at B.F. Goodrich when he independently invented PVC. But unlike the earlier chemists, it dawned on him that this new material would make a perfect shower curtain. He and his bosses at B.F. Goodrich patented PVC in the United States (Klatte's bosses apparently never filed for a patent outside Germany). Tons of new uses for this wonderful waterproof material followed, and PVC was a smash hit the second time around. <br /><br />Other polymers used as plastics include: <br /><br /><br />Polyethylene <br />Polypropylene <br />Polycarbonate <br />Polystyrene <br />Polyesters <br />Nylon <br />Poly(methyl methacrylate) <br /><br />Source: http://www.pslc.ws/macrog/pvc.htm <br /><br />_______________________________________________________________<br /><br />Even when you are trying to be smart you are are ???????????? PVC is what is known as a thermoplastic. I just have to laugh.
 

QC

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Re: Use the Sherman anti-trust act

LMAO @ both of you.
 
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