War in Iraq

[deputydawg]

Re: War in Iraq

I will admit when I was wrong. I got myself confused on when Bin Laden was suspected of hiding in Pakistan, and that country would not allow us in. <br />If I remember correct that was the same time Saddam kicked the weapons inspectors out, or at least one of the times. <br /><br />I would like 1 answer though, why is everyone against Hitler and so upset when the mass graves were found containing thousands of Jews, but when the mass graves were found in Iraq containing thousands of citizens men women and children then it is ok? The few survivors said it was from testing of weapons. <br /><br />I have asked this question many mnay times, and the best response I ever get is....that was different, or Hitler was a bigger threat to the world. <br /><br />Looking at war from this point of view, the only war we should have ever been involved in in recent years at least is WWII against Japan, only counting wars in foreign lands that is.<br /><br />Has it ever dawned on anyone that there may be more behind the scenes that we as citizens are not entitled to know, or capable of understanding that is influencing this war? There may be something way beyond oil and whetever other ideas have come up that is the whole reason for being there. Beyond the conspiricy theories there are things going on behind the scenes that we as common citizens do not know or need to know about that govern foreign relations.<br /><br />Like I have said on many issues. Everyone has an opinion. I like to debate my ideas and see what comes up. I know I won't change anyones mind on things. That is the amazing thing about our country, we can do this. If I could hear an arguement beyond Bush getting rich off of the war and the WMD that were reported and evidenced but never found, and the other tired arguements I have been hearing then I might think about this from another point of view. But until then, the un-intelligent same old replies are not doing it. <br />Until then, someone answer one question for me to bring this closer to home. There were 800 soldiers killed in this war per year on average. How many people in the U.S. were killed in drug crimes a year in the U.S.? Counting all deaths related. Why not bring the boys home and go after the dope hard and get that qiped out? With the exception of that civil rights thing it could be done with some hard enforcement and punishment. Now my question on this is why spend our time worrying about one thing and ignore something else? If we are going to pick a cause, lets settle on the most severe.....but then that is not political.

 

[alumistar]

Re: War in Iraq

hey DD, i think the major problem with getting a good debate, is lack of information and too broad of a generalization of the topics at discussion...bush getting rich(too general) saddam and hitler being the same(too general) should we be there in the first place?(too general) even your own words relating to bringing the troops home and cracking down hard on "dope"(too general) when you say dope, to what drug do you refer? and lastly, how do you expect to bring home the troops, just to crack down on our own people? i mean, o.k. let say there's 300,000,000 people in the country. of that there are like 5,000,000 soldiers from every format from the army to coast gaurd reserves. and maybe another 20,000,000 tops in all law enforcement personell. that would total 25,000,000 enforcment capability working against a network of drug lords inside and outside the u.s. that are easily that many strong. plus the 150,000,000+ people in the u.s. that are hooked on drugs, everything from flexiral, to soma, to valium, to cocaine, to meth, to oxycontin, to even alcohol, you name it. how on earth could they even begin to think about taking them all down? once down, there's still the international society of pushers that will react to our western cowboy gun totin' lawmen. because honestly, that is what it would take to stop all this: shoot on sight, take first shot without regaurd to race, sex, age. unfortunately it would never, never work! at least I don't think it would work. just my own opinion of course!

 

[Haut Medoc]

Re: War in Iraq

"DD", the answer to # 1 is the liberal left wing media, which is largely controlled by Jewish $.... <br /><br />Hitler did declare war on the U.S., BTW.... <br /><br />I don't think our government has the right to go to war over any hidden agenda.... & the American people would be fools to let this or any administration have "Carte Blanche" based on the idea of "Blind Faith". Then we would truly be "sheeple". I want to know what my government is doing! Because I don't trust it! <br /><br />I would guess that most people that die in drug related incidents are gang members...Let them kill themselves, don't waste perfectly good soldiers that could be killing someone else....The war on drugs has been fought and lost, IMHO.. ..JK

 

[deputydawg]

Re: War in Iraq

Good opinions and some things to think on. <br /><br />Although I too agree it is not right to take our country to war on a hidden agenda, I also know that there are things we as a society do not know, do not have the capacity to know, or have a reason to know. One reason for this, if we as a society know, then so do our enemies. They all watch CNN too. That is one reason the press bashing Bush and the war effort is so damaging to the soldiers. If the press showed nothing but rallies supporting our troops, and good thoughts and prayers with our soldiers then they might think about stopping their fight. By seeing so much of the people back home against the fight, then they know the backbone of our military is weak. <br />You and I would be able to handle and understand some of the entangling alliances with other countries and what they involve, but others would not. How can anyone decide who to let in on these things. Also there is still somewhat of a spy game I am sure, similar to back in the cold war times. <br /><br />One thing that comes to mind that I saw on teh history channel or somewhere not long ago. SDomeone was accusing the government of lying about landing on the moon. Really who cares if we did or not, it makes a good story. One of the theories on that program was that the president at the time made up the lie to cover up wasting billions on space exploration. In reality if in fact we never did land on the moon, the lie nay go way deeper. That was the heat of the cold war. If anyone here remembers the fallout shelters, the films we were forced to watch in school about the big bomb Russia was going to drop on us, and how hot it got at times. The whole space race was both seeing who had the technical knowhow to get there first, but it was also testing rockets. The first one that could launch a rocket and bring it back to earth on a known location, this technology could also be used against our enemies in a possible war. <br /><br />This last was just an example of why we are in fact sheeple, or at least in my opinion.

 

[KRS]

Re: War in Iraq

Some believe war should be perfect; no casualties, no intelligence problems, no bad decisions by foot soldiers, no bad decisions by command staff.... etc. I don't understand these people. If only our founding forefathers has thought twice about going to war.....<br /><br />I don't articulate my feelings well, and I don't argue with people, I think it's a waste of time. But my feelings run strong and deep, and I do vote for leaders who support my feelings.<br /><br />I just re-read most of this post... and I just wanted to say that Deputy Dawg has expressed many of the thoughts I agree with in his last few posts.

 

[Skinnywater]

Re: War in Iraq

I would like 1 answer though, why is everyone against Hitler and so upset when the mass graves were found containing thousands of Jews, but when the mass graves were found in Iraq containing thousands of citizens men women and children then it is ok?

It's more accurate to compare your example this way.<br />Bin Laden was more the Hitler to us at that time and Saddam was more like Mousolinni.<br />Say we had a really good opportunity to kill or capture Hitler. We had overwhelming support to do almost anything that was needed.<br />Instead we diverted men and hardware to capture Mousolinni. In the process we dumbfounded all the supporters of the Hitler action and let him escape.<br />We became bogged down, lost important domestic support, the incompetence became evident and we need competent leadership to get back on track again.<br />

With over 2000 lives lost.....in how many years is that? How many murders in the U.S. in the same time frame? Compare a war zone to a peacful country, someone must be doing something right.<br />

If you want to put it in better perspective, consider this.<br />During the actual invasion of Iraq we lost 20-30 lives? (i forget) We lose a lot less men when we are on the move, on the offensive and we achieve monumental progress against our enemys while doing it.<br />

Life in the political world is not as clear as people think. There are motivators everywhere "other than oil and money people are stuck on". There is a reason we are staying out of Pakistan, only we as citizens don't have a need to know or right to know.

We know now that Robert McNamarra wasn't an oil man, a warrior, or had the countrys best interests in mind. Nor the interests of the men who fought and died for it.

 

[rolmops]

Re: War in Iraq

Skinny water,the only reason why there were so few casualties during the initial attack was that the Iraqis had decided not to give battle but disappeared in the woodwork instead.A good example of a different possibility would be Kosovo where the Yugoslavian army could not be found and US and NATO forces did not enter the areas where the slavs were holed up for fear of very high casualties.

 

[deputydawg]

Re: War in Iraq

I must say after all that I am not completely for the war in Iraq. I am not completely against it either. I know why we are there, and I do believe that is important, but on the same side I wonder as I have often why it must be our soldiers? I was surprised when we focused out attention there instead of Bin Laden. I have heard what both sides here at home say about why we are there including oil, money, even Bush getting revenge for his father. I am sure the French back when the allied forces liberated their country were kind of pleased someone came to their aid, and many other countries were glad we came running.<br /><br />What I can say for certain is this, I give my full support to our troops over there. Right or wrong, personal feelings aside they need our support and need to be treated as heroes when they come home. I can not imagine placing my life on the line like they are, then be treated bad when I came home. Above all our personal feelings we need to be supportive of our men and women over there.<br /><br />Also to end I have to ask, what if Clinton would have attacked when he was in office? Seriously would there be an issue then? I am assuming yes because people do not have the nerve for war in these times, but what if...

 

[Haut Medoc]

Re: War in Iraq

If Clinton (or Gore) were in office we would have "Held Off"....Our boys are there & I do support them....They will not be treated as "Heroes", however....At least the ones that are in Iraq....Afghanistan was a justified response to what was bourne out on American soil....Iraq....Maybe not so much,IMHO....Unortunately, those Americans who "paid the ultimate price" & NO B.S., or sarcasm will not get lumped together...I do not take this lightly.....We should have stopped with Afghanistan & reconned. We rushed in & now we are stuck....Saddam wasn't going anywhere....Not enough to threaten the U.S. with WMDS, anyway. We would have to let his agents in for that to happen....We are in now, for better or for worse....I hope we get the outcome we wanted.....JK

 

[Skinnywater]

Re: War in Iraq

Skinny water,the only reason why there were so few casualties during the initial attack was that the Iraqis had decided not to give battle but disappeared in the woodwork instead.

The outcome is the same. Not very many Armys in the world are willing or able to stay in the battlefeild waiting for the next round of bunker-busters, cluster-bombs for days on end. Then only to wake up to clouds of dust miles long from the advancing M1's and Bradleys.<br />Advancing UN/NATO forces are about as intimidating as the....???...French?? <br />

We are in now, for better or for worse....I hope we get the outcome we wanted.....JK

JK, any sensible American knows that we can't pull out until we fix what we broke in Iraq. <br />The next 5 years will prove to be very interesting. Personally, I see Israel taking the initiative in Iran and Syria. That should get us moving again.

 

[stan_deezy]

Re: War in Iraq

Originally posted by deputydawg:<br /> I am sure the French back when the allied forces liberated their country were kind of pleased someone came to their aid, and many other countries were glad we came running.<br /><br />

DD I agree with most of the things that you are saying but perhaps I might point a major difference here:<br /><br />France already had a democracy as did a lot of the countries that we (the Allies) helped to liberate.<br /><br />Iraq didn't have a democracy and for the most part the Arab world doesn't really understand Western democracy. It isn't embedded in their history or culture the way it is in the West. Personally I think one of the main reasons why we (the West) are getting embroilled in so many intractable conflicts is because we can't grasp the idea that our ideaology isn't a "one size fits all". Although democracy works for us it does so because we've grown up with it and we've honed it to suit our values, religions, and way of life. Imagine for a moment how hard we'd fight (and how hard we have fought!) against a whole new ideaology like Communism for example?<br /><br />BTW, I'm surprised that very people here ever comment about the fact that Bin Laden was found in Afghanistan. Perhaps the story never made the US newstands? It was reported here in the UK and I actually know one of the people involved. Bin Laden was found in a cave complex in a valley close to the Pakistan border about 18 months-two years ago. British Forces found him but were told to await the arrival of American SF (it was suspected at the time that this was for publicity reasons). Unfortunatly by the time the Americans arrived he'd done a runner watched by the helpless British troops..........

 

[Triton II]

Re: War in Iraq

Bin Laden was found in a cave complex

Seriously? We didn't get that news here either and we're about as pro-USA/Brit as it's possible to be.

 

[12Footer]

Re: War in Iraq

Originally posted by J.kopec:<br /> If Clinton (or Gore) were in office we would have "Held Off"....Our boys are there & I do support them....They will not be treated as "Heroes", however....At least the ones that are in Iraq....Afghanistan was a justified response to what was bourne out on American soil....Iraq....Maybe not so much,IMHO....Unortunately, those Americans who "paid the ultimate price" & NO B.S., or sarcasm will not get lumped together...I do not take this lightly.....We should have stopped with Afghanistan & reconned. We rushed in & now we are stuck....Saddam wasn't going anywhere....Not enough to threaten the U.S. with WMDS, anyway. We would have to let his agents in for that to happen....We are in now, for better or for worse....I hope we get the outcome we wanted.....JK

Well, how about that?! I agree with you, JK!!<br />I listed all the quotes by the hypocrats on purpose. Bush warned repeatedly of impending action against the sandman,and even "held-off" EIGHT MONTHS in an effort for the UN to act diplomatically, or by any unilateral force needed to get compliance on the resolutions.<br />Clinton/Gore would've held-off indefinatel;y. The only difference is, Bush acted. And may i add that he acted in the interest of those who placed him in office.<br />To bash Bush over the removal of a global tyrant, while totally ignoring what the hypocrats were saying long before Bush was president, says all that needs to be said of your position on this issue.<br />Now, as for what they and Bush were saying then, whether they were telling the truth or not, all depends on the intel they were given....Intel that failed miserably to engage itself with a republican in office. Bush is in the midst of cleaning house in the CIA. Why? Is it out of some sort of revenge? Could it be he wanted the majority leader indicted?<br />Not likely. He wanted to restore it to an agency that put politics asside, and did what they were paid to do.<br /><br />When Bush's brother, Jeb, became Governor of my state, My niece allready werked in one of the offices in the administration...How long ago was that, JK?<br /><br />She is still whining instead of werking to this day, and admits to doing everything she can legally to thwart any progress he might be champion of. The importance of this to this debate is, that there are people in the CIA who are treating GWBush the same way---and at my expense! I want them gone. And i want my niece gone (if she can't do an honest day's werk for an honest day's pay)!<br /><br /><br />BTW, i did email Jeb's office, informing him of what my own niece is doing, and then, wrote her an email, including a CC of it. She hasn't spoken to me since, but she is still werking there, but must now watch her six, because her uncle is very angry with her. So is her boss-man.

 

[rodbolt]

Re: War in Iraq

DD your kinda off base on some of the above.<br /> if you actually think the "terrorist" will think twice cause of some rally in the US you need to read a bit of history. would not matter one bit to that culture.<br /> however your correct on the US proipaganda to keep the general public scared to death of the russian bear, while the russian bear was and still is a grave worry it seems anytime something was afoot then the media was fed some nuclear holocoust stuff. it worked. I am old enough to remember the nuke drills in school. but its the same as terror today, seems its turning into a nice catch phrase. and thats when it becomes a propaganda tool. all I want is the facts, if the facts show the current admin mislead us its time for them to step aside cause it means we lost valuable time and lives persuing the wrong course with the wrong mission.<br /> that would mean many things that should have ben priority were not. I am watching the aussie terror thing now and it seems they watched that group for 16months, could you imagine if one of the inside informants cover had been blown like some of Plames associates and "co-workers" at brewster?<br /> I would not reccomend a course of action like 12fter did, if it damages his niece's carreer and she can prove it unfounded she could own 12ftr. same as when a prospective employer contacts a former employer the fmr employer has to be careful about the "facts" they present to the prospective employer. and while Bush "acted" it is starting to seem to be a knee jerk action that cost a lot more than it was worth. look at how long the so called terror level has been at "elevated" so long I wont even pay attention to it.terrorism has been about just slightly longer than counter terror. as the world gets smaller and various bands and groups get more radical it will get worse. gets worse faster if the radicals come from poor areas with no hope of betterment. thats why you see so many wealthy suicide bombers. come on if osammy's net wealth was about 10 dollars instead of 300 million dollars(one CIA estimate) do you think he would have anyfollowers or would he have just been another suicide bomber, a foot note in history. which is why instead of Iraq we should have taken out saudi arabia after 9/11. but the current admin has to many oil and industrial as well as financial ties to that country so Bush went after a soft target. seems the reason we went was wrong. but to kill a snake ya dont chop off the tip of the tail. ya chop the head. in this terror case the head is the financial backing of the house of saud.

 

[stan_deezy]

Re: War in Iraq

Originally posted by Triton II:<br />

Bin Laden was found in a cave complex

Seriously? We didn't get that news here either and we're about as pro-USA/Brit as it's possible to be.

Tis true unfortunatly Triton. I'll try and find a link to the story and post asap.

 

[rodbolt]

Re: War in Iraq

stan<br /> while your hunting try to find a source to confirm or deny a report I read about a CIA operative talking with saddam while he was in a hospital for treatment sometime in 02. I read the article sometime back but could not find any research footnotes to confirm it with.<br />reports that cannot be confirmed are not saved.

 

[PW2]

Re: War in Iraq

I really don't understand your position 12 footer.<br /><br />First off, just because there were some spineless dems who were afraid to appear "soft" on terrorism, does not justify anything.<br /><br />I can't understand why the repubs want to block a thorough investigation of what went wrong with the intelligence, and why it went wrong. Because it clearly was wrong. Surely if the were a "plot" by the CIA, it would reveal itself. <br /><br />Surely it is in the best interests of every American for their leaders to get accurate, reliable, timely intelligence--and how can we possibly improve it if we block trying to find out what went wrong?

 

[Haut Medoc]

Re: War in Iraq

"12" what does "Jeb" have to do with it? I believe he was elected in 1998, I remember my mom & dad *****in' about it.....Is Florida 8 & out? It would be nice to be "Bush Free" by 2009...."W" should blame "dad"....He was the DCI & sat in "JR's" present seat.....Enough of the nepotism! Thank Heaven that all the Bush kids are criminals & we will be finally rid of this family.....JK

 

[stan_deezy]

Re: War in Iraq

Originally posted by rodbolt:<br /> stan<br /> while your hunting try to find a source to confirm or deny a report I read about a CIA operative talking with saddam while he was in a hospital for treatment sometime in 02. I read the article sometime back but could not find any research footnotes to confirm it with.<br />reports that cannot be confirmed are not saved.

rodbolt, I've spent a wee while trying to get the link for the original story but like you say "unconfirmed reports" seem to get binned and not archived. The closest I got was a Sunday Express report (conservative UK paper, usually quite accurate) which is reported here: trapped but some of the details don't tie up with the story I remember (the size of the area and the fact that both US and UK forces were in there). The story was told to me later by a chap who was aircrew in one of the helos that was taxi-ing the SF around the area. Unfortunatly I can't contact him at the moment for better details. Of course it could all be "heroes tales" and I admit that we were approaching the bottom of the beer barrel when the story was told but he's usually quite a straight guy not given to Walter Mitty stuff.<br />regarding the story about the CIA bloke talking with Saddam, I didn't find that one I'm afraid to say. Like you said, perhaps they just put them in a bin laden with "swinging latern" tales (pun intended) the unconfirmed stories

 

[rodbolt]

Re: War in Iraq

think JEB and W are crooked try Neil or grandpa Presscot B. they screwd one in the ground and will likly have to do that with the other. look up trading with the nazis and silvarado savings and loan. talk about some wild things going on. I remember the second fiasco, only cost the us taxpayers a few million. neil used daddy B to get him off the hook. that was one of my earliest eyeopenings about our legal system. its the best money can buy. god help ya if ya cant afford it.