War

QC

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Mar 22, 2005
Messages
22,783
Re: War

Some call him Ran Dather . . .
 
D

DJ

Guest
Re: War

JasonJ,

I hear what you are saying and understand.

Trouble is, we could not/cannot use our covert abilities. The Democrats would have gone Ape.

The party in leadership (Republicans) would have been called every name in the book. It would have made the current naysaying sound like a whisper.

Democrats feel (notice I didn't say-think) we're sneaky anyway.

I do not agree with GWB on everything. But the difference between me and a Kool Aid drinkers is that I'll admit it.

We've been taught, as of late, to not classify people. But, one certainly can, by their actions. That hasn't changed, in thousands of years, and never will.

We have four types of citizenry, regarding politics.

1. Staunch Left.

2. Staunch Right.

3. Middle-(listen to both sides and pick a person that espouses what they think.

4. Don't know-Don't care-Don't vote. Yet, will complain-vehemently.

I'm #3.

#4 scares the He!! out of me. #4 is growing and "Lemming Run" has begun.
 

QC

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Mar 22, 2005
Messages
22,783
Re: War

The problem with # 3 is that you end up with less power, not more.

I hate it, but you should vote the party line that is closest to your thoughts if you want to balance out the other, more scarier, more stauncher side . . .
 

JasonJ

Rear Admiral
Joined
Aug 20, 2001
Messages
4,163
Re: War

I hear ya Djohns...The dems are griping now, so we might as well have gone covert if complaining was going to happen anyway. Would have saved us a couple of pennies and some good men...
 
D

DJ

Guest
Re: War

JasonJ,

I'm assuming you are a Peace Officer-now.

Either way, good for you.

I disagree on the "middle" part. Republicans expect us to vote a straight ticket. Democrats DEMAND it.

By "splitting" we send a real message to Washington and our State/local politicians. I don't vote party, I vote "PERSON". And, I VOTE!

I truly cherish the ability to vote, with no pressure. We have allot of men that died for this privilege so that so many CAN think of that privege as a "pain in the A$$".

It seems that many of us want to live under a "tyrant" that decides our every move.

Not me-never. I've tasted freedom and I ain't going back.

I have found that anyone given anything, never appreciates it.
 

LadyFish

Admiral
Joined
Mar 18, 2003
Messages
6,894
Re: War

Back to the initial subject of this thread. We are at war, been at war and will continue to be at war until there is world peace (bascially forever).

However, time has been our enemy in the past several years. War is taking too long. Most Americans are oblivious to criticism if they wake up in the morning and learn their military has bombed a Saddam or sent a missile into Afghanistan — and the war was begun and then ended all while they were sleeping. In contrast, 6-8 weeks — about the length of the Balkan or Afghanistan war — is the limit of our patience. After that, Americans become so sensitive to global criticism that they begin to hate themselves as much as others do.

I personally feel war is a necessary evil. I hate it, but I know without it, we can't possibly survive the ills of evil in this world. Whether this hatred is self induced or not, it exists and we can't deny that people are here to kill us. So we have no choice but to take action.

As bad as all that is, I think its really sad that the most disgusting war is right here at home amongst ourselves.....Americans fighting with other Americans. :/

Whatever happend to "United We Stand Divided We Fall?"
 

kenimpzoom

Rear Admiral
Joined
Jul 13, 2002
Messages
4,807
Re: War

Because the USA has turned into "Unitied we stand, divided we get votes from the sheeple"

Ken
 

rottenray6402

Ensign
Joined
Jul 27, 2004
Messages
923
Re: War

Well said LF. IMHO the biggest problem we have in America is to many people want to have it all but be resposible for nothing. Be able to enjoy all of our freedoms but sacrifice nothing for them. We have a nation of whining spoiled brats that wants everything their way and then when they get it they want something else. We have to many little groups that for some reason wield a bunch of power and the wishes of the majority be darned! I am getting really cynical but I really don't see the nation coming together as a whole ever again. If we were fighting WW2 at this point we would lose. The dumbed down general public wouldn't even realize it until they were herded off to camps. I hate to say it but it could happen in the forseeable future.
 

NOSLEEP

Commander
Joined
Oct 30, 2002
Messages
2,442
Re: War

Here is a look back at what the U.S.A. once was.

Some of you will remember this inaugural speach.

Vice President Johnson, Mr. Speaker, Mr. Chief Justice, President Eisenhower, Vice President Nixon, President Truman, reverend clergy, fellow citizens, we observe today not a victory of party, but a celebration of freedom—symbolizing an end, as well as a beginning—signifying renewal, as well as change. For I have sworn before you and Almighty God the same solemn oath our forebears prescribed nearly a century and three quarters ago.
The world is very different now. For man holds in his mortal hands the power to abolish all forms of human poverty and all forms of human life. And yet the same revolutionary beliefs for which our forebears fought are still at issue around the globe—the belief that the rights of man come not from the generosity of the state, but from the hand of God.
We dare not forget today that we are the heirs of that first revolution. Let the word go forth from this time and place, to friend and foe alike, that the torch has been passed to a new generation of Americans—born in this century, tempered by war, disciplined by a hard and bitter peace, proud of our ancient heritage—and unwilling to witness or permit the slow undoing of those human rights to which this Nation has always been committed, and to which we are committed today at home and around the world.
Let every nation know, whether it wishes us well or ill, that we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe, in order to assure the survival and the success of liberty.
This much we pledge—and more.
To those old allies whose cultural and spiritual origins we share, we pledge the loyalty of faithful friends. United, there is little we cannot do in a host of cooperative ventures. Divided, there is little we can do—for we dare not meet a powerful challenge at odds and split asunder.
To those new States whom we welcome to the ranks of the free, we pledge our word that one form of colonial control shall not have passed away merely to be replaced by a far more iron tyranny. We shall not always expect to find them supporting our view. But we shall always hope to find them strongly supporting their own freedom—and to remember that, in the past, those who foolishly sought power by riding the back of the tiger ended up inside.
To those peoples in the huts and villages across the globe struggling to break the bonds of mass misery, we pledge our best efforts to help them help themselves, for whatever period is required—not because the Communists may be doing it, not because we seek their votes, but because it is right. If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich.
To our sister republics south of our border, we offer a special pledge—to convert our good words into good deeds—in a new alliance for progress—to assist free men and free governments in casting off the chains of poverty. But this peaceful revolution of hope cannot become the prey of hostile powers. Let all our neighbors know that we shall join with them to oppose aggression or subversion anywhere in the Americas. And let every other power know that this Hemisphere intends to remain the master of its own house.
To that world assembly of sovereign states, the United Nations, our last best hope in an age where the instruments of war have far outpaced the instruments of peace, we renew our pledge of support—to prevent it from becoming merely a forum for invective—to strengthen its shield of the new and the weak—and to enlarge the area in which its writ may run.
Finally, to those nations who would make themselves our adversary, we offer not a pledge but a request: that both sides begin anew the quest for peace, before the dark powers of destruction unleashed by science engulf all humanity in planned or accidental self-destruction.

We dare not tempt them with weakness. For only when our arms are sufficient beyond doubt can we be certain beyond doubt that they will never be employed.
But neither can two great and powerful groups of nations take comfort from our present course—both sides overburdened by the cost of modern weapons, both rightly alarmed by the steady spread of the deadly atom, yet both racing to alter that uncertain balance of terror that stays the hand of mankind's final war.
So let us begin anew—remembering on both sides that civility is not a sign of weakness, and sincerity is always subject to proof. Let us never negotiate out of fear. But let us never fear to negotiate.
Let both sides explore what problems unite us instead of belaboring those problems which divide us.
Let both sides, for the first time, formulate serious and precise proposals for the inspection and control of arms—and bring the absolute power to destroy other nations under the absolute control of all nations.
Let both sides seek to invoke the wonders of science instead of its terrors. Together let us explore the stars, conquer the deserts, eradicate disease, tap the ocean depths, and encourage the arts and commerce.
Let both sides unite to heed in all corners of the earth the command of Isaiah—to "undo the heavy burdens ... and to let the oppressed go free."
And if a beachhead of cooperation may push back the jungle of suspicion, let both sides join in creating a new endeavor, not a new balance of power, but a new world of law, where the strong are just and the weak secure and the peace preserved.
All this will not be finished in the first 100 days. Nor will it be finished in the first 1,000 days, nor in the life of this Administration, nor even perhaps in our lifetime on this planet. But let us begin.
In your hands, my fellow citizens, more than in mine, will rest the final success or failure of our course. Since this country was founded, each generation of Americans has been summoned to give testimony to its national loyalty. The graves of young Americans who answered the call to service surround the globe.
Now the trumpet summons us again—not as a call to bear arms, though arms we need; not as a call to battle, though embattled we are—but a call to bear the burden of a long twilight struggle, year in and year out, "rejoicing in hope, patient in tribulation"—a struggle against the common enemies of man: tyranny, poverty, disease, and war itself.
Can we forge against these enemies a grand and global alliance, North and South, East and West, that can assure a more fruitful life for all mankind? Will you join in that historic effort?
In the long history of the world, only a few generations have been granted the role of defending freedom in its hour of maximum danger. I do not shrink from this responsibility—I welcome it. I do not believe that any of us would exchange places with any other people or any other generation. The energy, the faith, the devotion which we bring to this endeavor will light our country and all who serve it—and the glow from that fire can truly light the world.
And so, my fellow Americans: ask not what your country can do for you—ask what you can do for your country.
My fellow citizens of the world: ask not what America will do for you, but what together we can do for the freedom of man.
Finally, whether you are citizens of America or citizens of the world, ask of us the same high standards of strength and sacrifice which we ask of you. With a good conscience our only sure reward, with history the final judge of our deeds, let us go forth to lead the land we love, asking His blessing and His help, but knowing that here on earth God's work must truly be our own.
 

--GQ--

Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Oct 24, 2005
Messages
516
Re: War

rwise said:
yes we are at war! And if we pull out they WILL come here to fight, better to stay there.


The very same thing was said about Nam. I have yet to see the NVA Navy off the coast of California. Maybe I should get my head out of the sand and look around. . . 8)
 

JRJ

Commander
Joined
Sep 11, 2001
Messages
2,992
Re: War

--GQ-- said:
rwise said:
yes we are at war! And if we pull out they WILL come here to fight, better to stay there.


The very same thing was said about Nam. I have yet to see the NVA Navy force off the coast of California. Maybe I should get my head out of the sand and look around.
I wouldn't say your head is in the sand GQ, can't you tell by the smell where your head is? Self exam I guess.
 

mrbscott19

Chief Petty Officer
Joined
May 18, 2004
Messages
603
Re: War

Of course we're at war. We've been fighting the War on Drugs now for 15+ years......where you been?

The War on Terror is the same type of war, just a different noun put on the end.

And the real answer.......no we're not at war and we haven't been for the past 5 years. There has been no declaration of War by the only people that can declare it. Just because some people say we are doesn't make it true. The facts tell me this, for they are the gateway to truth, and the truth is that Congress has not declared war, therefore it would be impossible to actually be at war.
 

QC

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Mar 22, 2005
Messages
22,783
Re: War

NOSLEEP said:
Here is a look back at what the U.S.A. once was.

Some of you will remember this inaugural speach.

For I have sworn before you and Almighty God the same solemn oath our forebears prescribed nearly a century and three quarters ago.
. . .
Let every nation know, whether it wishes us well or ill, that we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe, in order to assure the survival and the success of liberty.

. . . let us go forth to lead the land we love, asking His blessing and His help, but knowing that here on earth God's work must truly be our own.

Right-wing, religious, war monger . . .
 

PW2

Commander
Joined
Apr 21, 2004
Messages
2,719
Re: War

JFK clearly knew how to put together and deliver a speech. This country has had many great orators over the years, and it is important. FDR's "We have nothing to fear but fear itself" speech comes to mind, and we could probably use it delivered today.

But JFK's speech was pre Viet Nam, and America has learned something. Being the only superpower left, it is no longer enough for most Americans to simply be tough. We have to be smart as well.

Which is why the "Powell Doctrine" came into favor, which basically says before we enter one of these things we need three things:

1. A clearly defined objective

2. Ovewrwhelming force to get the job done and the objective met.

3. A clearly defined exit strategy.

Americans are not souring on this war because of the casualty count, or don't have the stomach for a fight. They just expect us to be smart, as well as tough. They are souring because we violated all the tenets of the Powell Doctrine, and there is only a vague objective stated, and no end in sight.

It's the same reason Israelis are upset about their recent war in Lebanon. A cloudy objective, and not enough force to get the job done.
 

QC

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Mar 22, 2005
Messages
22,783
Re: War

PW2,

I don't disagree, but I would add that post 9/11 is also different than pre-Vietnam etc. We are learning new lessons yet again. What I personally believe we need today is a truly multi-national, anti-terrorism, elite strike team (yes, I know it is naive). Clancy called it Rainbow Six, but it needs to be much bigger than that. The best people, the best equipment, the best intelligence, combined and somewhat autonomous. This is what I hoped the "you're either with us or against us" thing would turn out to be. The impediment to this is the unbelievable confusion over right and wrong, good and evil etc. This is one of the reasons I harp on that so much. If we (collective good guy we) can't agree on what is acceptable behavior by nations, pseudo political groups etc. then it can't happen. For example if you have anybody in the coalition defending a group like Hezbollah, then it's hopeless. I think all of this stuff emanates from the definitions of right and wrong, good and evil. It is so simple to me. Murdering innocents, bad; killing murderers, good . . .

I do believe that JFK's positions, regardless of his oratory gift, would be considered conservative and pretty far right on the spectrum today. That was the point of my little tongue in cheek note.
 

PW2

Commander
Joined
Apr 21, 2004
Messages
2,719
Re: War

I absolutely agree with most of what you said, QC. I have a hard time believing, with all the satellite technology, and drones, and whatever else we don't even know about technology wise, that we can't get a bead on a 6'5" Arab. Or his buddies.

And I don't have any idea where JFK would fit on the spectrum these days. Somewhere near the center, I'd guess. His handling of the Cuban missle crisis was deft, but the Bay of Pigs fiasco was something less than that. He was extraordinarily skilled at coalition building and diplomacy. I've long wondered if he would have expanded Viet Nam had he lived. I don't think he would have, but we'll never know for sure.

I personally think it's too bad that this country has become so polarized politically. There are good ideas on all sides of the political spectrum. Once one side or the other gets demonized and becomes 2 dimentional cartoon characters, we all lose out on potential good ideas from the political opposition, and it's unfortunate, IMHO.
 

QC

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Mar 22, 2005
Messages
22,783
Re: War

PW2 said:
I have a hard time believing, with all the satellite technology, and drones, and whatever else we don't even know about technology wise, that we can't get a bead on a 6'5" Arab. Or his buddies.

This confuses me too. Makes me hope that we may have someone on the inside, so it is better to keep the SOB alive while we can monitor what he's up to . . . Who knows? Defintiely not me. We also have to accept that there are other smart people out there who can figure out how to hide.
 

--GQ--

Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Oct 24, 2005
Messages
516
Re: War

JRJ said:
--GQ-- said:
rwise said:
yes we are at war! And if we pull out they WILL come here to fight, better to stay there.


The very same thing was said about Nam. I have yet to see the NVA Navy force off the coast of California. Maybe I should get my head out of the sand and look around.
I wouldn't say your head is in the sand GQ, can't you tell by the smell where your head is? Self exam I guess.


Vice Pres. JRJ, I am sure you have more experience than I do. I can't stick my head that far up my (bleep). Can you illustrate step by step. I promise to follow blindly....8)

Must be hot in Redding, Ca. Drink lotsa water.

Is it 2008 yet?
 
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