Why can't boat manufactures get with the times??

[H20Rat]

Re: Why can't boat manufactures get with the times??

Yeah get real! Even with a code scanner you may have a tough time diagnosing it. Lets say for example that you did have a code scanner with you and it said the MAF stopped working? What are you going to do? You are basically stuck! The only good your smart phone is going to do for you is call for a tow.

Unplug the MAF! If you have a failed maf sensor, unplugging it puts the ECU into open loop fueling safe/limp mode, and you can at least get yourself back to shore. The good part about EFI is that there is a backup or workaround for almost everything. It won't operate in closed loop mode obviously, and is going to be pig rich, but it will run. You really need very few sensors to run, outside of a cam or crank sensor, you really don't need any other.


I own more engines than I can count, and do a fair amount of high performance tuning on both systems. I would MUCH rather work on an EFI system! Far fewer parts to fail, vastly more reliable overall. Carbs are finicky little things that are so incredibly sensitive to clogs. Its fairly hard to actually clog up an injector.

As far as tuning, it requires an entirely different skillset. My day job is computer programmer/network admin, and even then it took more to learn the computer side of tuning EFI than it did the engine side. I'm up to the point I'm running a 100% customized map on my car to burn e85 on a vehicle never meant for it, with a 20hp/30 ft/lb of torque increase.

 

[scipper77]

Re: Why can't boat manufactures get with the times??

I;m sorry if this is considered political but...

If GM sits on there hands thinking they controll the matket for too long an outside (of this country) manufacturer with resources to build a more modern engine at a lower cost may come in and takes a bite out of the market.

We are not the only country in the world with demand for boats you know.

Again I really don't intend this as a politically motivated post. It's just that I think we have seen this pattern before in the automotive industry. I believe it was called the 80's.

My Ford has a Mazda engine.

(I'm not criticizing or offering opinion on this being good or bad, so I hope I can pass this off as not political. If it is mods just delete this post)

 

[Shamus O'toole]

Re: Why can't boat manufactures get with the times??

Yeah get real! Even with a code scanner you may have a tough time diagnosing it. Lets say for example that you did have a code scanner with you and it said the MAF stopped working? What are you going to do? You are basically stuck! The only good your smart phone is going to do for you is call for a tow.

you obviously have never tuned a vehicle with a stand alone DFI such as Accel DFI, FAST Fuel Systems. Mass air sensor...lol...I'd rather have a speed density system on a boat but maybe thats to far advanced for you...lol.. A production EFI computer out of a car would not be the best way to go on a boat. So yeah get real dude and don't be so afraid of progress.

 

[45Auto]

Re: Why can't boat manufactures get with the times??

I'd rather have a speed density system on a boat but maybe thats to far advanced for you

Wow, sounds like you're an engine genius!! Why don't you build some boats with these great engines you keep telling us about and make a few million dollars? Heck, just start with one. If it's so much greater than what's out there, people will be willing to pay you a lot more for it. Put those profits back into modifying more boats, and pretty soon you'll have enough to start your own boat company and put Mercruiser and Volvo out of business! Make all your parts green, you know, like Mercruiser uses black and Volvo uses red and silver?

To paraphrase a fine actor:

Well, punk, are you ready to put your money where your mouth is? Or are you all talk?

 

[pmillar]

Re: Why can't boat manufactures get with the times??

One point that I didn't see mentioned in the carbs vs. EFI debate, EFI greatly improves driveability under varying conditions. This tends to be more of an issue for cars due to elevation changes but air density (oxygen) also varies with temperature. No chokes to fiddle with, easy to modify if aftermarket parts are added. My experience comes from motorcycles and I much prefer efi for reliability, etc. even though on/off throttle can be a pain on stock (overly lean for pollution reasons) EFI bikes. On/off throttle snatchiness should be less of an issue on a boat.

Ironically, two of my three bikes run w/ carbs (and my boat).

97 Crestliner sportfish w/ 115 Johnson looper
73 Moto Guzzi Eldorado
97 Suzuki TL1000S
99 Yamaha TTR250

 

[TilliamWe]

Re: Why can't boat manufactures get with the times??

and the peak torque can be adjusted with a cam change. Just like they did in the 5.0 and 5.7.....anything eles??

No it can't. Those engines, with the heads they use, can not be made to run lower rpms effectively. Plainly, they need to spin fast to develope their power. Anything else?

 

[perchin]

Re: Why can't boat manufactures get with the times??

Wow, sounds like you're an engine genius!! Why don't you build some boats with these great engines you keep telling us about and make a few million dollars? Heck, just start with one. If it's so much greater than what's out there, people will be willing to pay you a lot more for it. Put those profits back into modifying more boats, and pretty soon you'll have enough to start your own boat company and put Mercruiser and Volvo out of business! Make all your parts green, you know, like Mercruiser uses black and Volvo uses red and silver?

To paraphrase a fine actor:

Well, punk, are you ready to put your money where your mouth is? Or are you all talk?

wow.... internet cowboys...

Most Great company's started in someone's garage.... I'm confused how you brung it to a personal level.. Does change bother you, or do you get off on being an as$?.... Oh wait I already know the answer just by looking at a few of your responses and posts.

 

[45Auto]

Re: Why can't boat manufactures get with the times??

wow.... internet cowboys...

Bang Bang!

Most Great company's started in someone's garage

So are you like my internet Tonto? Isn't that the exact same advice I offered him?

Don't you just hate it when reality screws up your little dream world?

Nothing stopping anyone from putting all the latest and greatest technology in a boat - GM will sell it to anyone, all it takes is money.

All aluminum, EFI, variable valve timing, etc, etc, etc. Only costs about $10,000 more than the base motors everyone uses:

http://www.gm.com/vehicles/innovati...ialized/marine/REV_2_2011_6200_LS3_Marine.pdf

The question is, will anyone buy a boat for an extra $10,000 (about 25% of the purchase price) that has essentially the same performance as the cheaper boat? Mercruiser and Volvo don't think they will. But maybe you know more about the boat market than they do.

Heck, you can even get the super-charged version for about another $10,000 on top of that:

http://www.gm.com/vehicles/innovati...ialized/marine/REV_3_2011_6200_LSA_Marine.pdf

 

[bruceb58]

Re: Why can't boat manufactures get with the times??

A production EFI computer out of a car would not be the best way to go on a boat. So yeah get real dude and don't be so afraid of progress.

Where did I say anything about a production EFI computer out of a car?

 

[perchin]

Re: Why can't boat manufactures get with the times??

maybe you know more about the boat market than they do.

your pulling this out of ???

We all see you have it all figured out..... please grace us with some more infinate words of expertise.

 

[dingbat]

Re: Why can't boat manufactures get with the times??

Maybe it?s because the future of boating isn't a car motor mounted in a boat.
All the major players are spending millions in outboard development. Numerous 4-stroke EFI outboards have been available for almost 10 years. A super charged 4-stroke outboard has been available for some time now. It is to the point that the DFI 2 stroke outboard rivals or surpasses the I/O in both fuel efficiency and performance.

Yamaha is offering a 5.3L, 350 HP outboard that weighs 30% less than a comparable output I/O. Next up is the 400 HP outboard.

 

[windsors03cobra]

Re: Why can't boat manufactures get with the times??

You do kn know Mercury racine has all your EFI, COP and roots type blown engines available right ?
Who the hell needs a 400 hp outboard when you can get a carbed 4.3 drive system for less than half that hi po gas guzzler ? Is everything a race ? Is everyone racing ?

Carbs are fine, been around practically as long as otto cycle engines themselves.

I mean I love my 500 horsepower supercharged Mustang Cobra but aint nothing wrong with the original small block chevy or a carb, Hell I'm even on board with point ignitions. Love that simplicity and cheap repair costs and ease of repairing.
I also own an OTC Genisys and that is nice but it aint 100%.

 

[45Auto]

Re: Why can't boat manufactures get with the times??

Maybe it?s because the future of boating isn't a car motor mounted in a boat.

Interesting viewpoint. You are aware that according to the NMMA (National Marine Manufacturer's Association), in the last 10 years the the number of I/O's has gone up 14.2%, while the number of outboards has gone up only 2.8%?

Last year alone the number of I/O's went up 1.8% while the number of outboards only went up .07%. And that includes all outboards, from the smallest on up.

There are about 4 times as many outboards as I/O's out there, but again, that includes everything from the smallest dinghy on up. The I/O's predominate in the upper power ranges.

Which segment do you think gets more research money, the auto industry or the boat industry? The auto industry sells more cars PER YEAR here than the total number of boats in the US after over 200 years as a country. There are 8 million outboards and 2 million I/O's total in the US after how many years of sales? There are also about 2 million PWC's and a million sailboats. About 13 million boats TOTAL. Auto sales are over 15 million per year in the US, 33 million PER YEAR worldwide. The research money will go where the market is. Why do you think Honda adapted the Accord V6 for use as an outboard motor?

A few niche manufacturer's like Yamaha and Mercury will continue outboard development for specialized markets, but saying high horsepower outboards are the future of boating is like saying Lamborghini's and Ferrari's are the future of automobiles.

Apparently a lot of people find it hard to justify spending over $30,000 on just a motor in the 250 HP and above range, when they can have a complete boat with more power for less money.

 

[JustJason]

Re: Why can't boat manufactures get with the times??

This thread has gone to crap with all the "knowledge tossing" going around.

But here's some food for thought.

you obviously have never tuned a vehicle with a stand alone DFI such as Accel DFI, FAST Fuel Systems

Neither have you. True DFI are just coming out in the automotive world now. True DFI involves having the fuel injector mounted in the combustion chamber. Those aftermarket kits are nothing more than sequential EFI calling itself something else.

Mass air sensor...lol...I'd rather have a speed density system on a boat but maybe thats to far advanced for you...lol..

Uhm... yeah that's what boats do use, speed density with MAP sensors. So I don't understand your statement. MAF's don't work in boats.

All the major players are spending millions in outboard development. Numerous 4-stroke EFI outboards have been available for almost 10 years. A super charged 4-stroke outboard has been available for some time now. It is to the point that the DFI 2 stroke outboard rivals or surpasses the I/O in both fuel efficiency and performance.

Thats because they have to. Congress gave the EPA power to mandate 2 cycle outboard emissions. and they did it. Problem is 4 stroke outboards to somebody that grew up on 2 stroke outboards are terrible, power wise, still are. Honda's run fine, but they are dogs compared to an Optipop or etec. So all the marine manufactors had a choice to make. Figure it out, or stop selling high performance outboards.

Yamaha is offering a 5.3L, 350 HP outboard that weighs 30% less than a comparable output I/O. Next up is the 400 HP outboard.

You realize MSRP on the F350 is close to 28 thousand dollars right? That's just the outboard. No rigging, no cables, no throttle control box, no boat. I could buy a mighty nice boat for 30 grand with the same power in an IO.

 

[Shamus O'toole]

Re: Why can't boat manufactures get with the times??

No it can't. Those engines, with the heads they use, can not be made to run lower rpms effectively. Plainly, they need to spin fast to develope their power. Anything else?

Proof you are all wrong....and this is an extreme example. 5800 RPM is not that high of an RPM range. Unless your used to...wait for it....1970's technology...lol

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7YtkD8CXnW8

it can be done....

 

[Shamus O'toole]

Re: Why can't boat manufactures get with the times??

This thread has gone to crap with all the "knowledge tossing" going around.

But here's some food for thought.



Neither have you. True DFI are just coming out in the automotive world now. True DFI involves having the fuel injector mounted in the combustion chamber. Those aftermarket kits are nothing more than sequential EFI calling itself something else.


QUOTE]

realy.....granted it's not DIRECT injection (and i never said it was) it is digital injection. We make over 1900 streetable HP on cars with after market DFI kits. ACCEL DFI in fact. We can tune these units by cylinder. Adjust timing by RPM. Adjust fuel curve by RPM. There isn't a single ignition sequence or fuel delivery sequence that can't be adjusted on a DFI. Come to FLA....I'll take ya for a ride.

 

[Shamus O'toole]

Re: Why can't boat manufactures get with the times??

ok enough of the "you know nothing" cr*p....Lets get this back on track.

I've posted up a video of an LS based MARINE motor running constantly on an engine dyno at 5800 rpm with no ill effects. Some say the motor will not last because you have to run it at a higher RPM. I disagree and the video proves the point. Also I've seen a couple of small high end custom builders running Dodge Viper V10's. What do you naysayers say to that?

Granted the current Vortech based marine motors have there place and at times easier for the home mechanic to work on. But what about the high end buyer that wants the lastest technology with out going through a custom builder? I mean chart plotter, bottom finder, fish finder technology changes every year. But would you guys be ok if it was the same crap that was being used in 1988?? No probably not. I know i wouldn't.

Modern tech can be applied to new boat building. If I'm gonna pay $150,000 for a new boat I better be getting the lastest technology to go with the price.

 

[45Auto]

Re: Why can't boat manufactures get with the times??

Proof you are all wrong....and this is an extreme example. 5800 RPM is not that high of an RPM range. Unless your used to...wait for it....1970's technology...lol

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7YtkD8CXnW8

Pretty wimpy little video. Why screw around with piston engines if you're looking for power? Get with the times, real airplanes quit using pistons over 60 years ago. Get something modern like this boat uses:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZMAvQGzaaI&NR=1

 

[Shamus O'toole]

Re: Why can't boat manufactures get with the times??

oh hell yes!! I like that!! but Chrysler tried already. While the turbine is great for top end speed I think (I"M NO EXPERT ON THESE!!!) it's a bit of a dog out of the hole compared to a V8. That was one of the reasons Chrysler killed the 63 Turbine concept car. Don't think I want that big exhaust while trolling for Dorado!!LOL

 

[dingbat]

Re: Why can't boat manufactures get with the times??

You realize MSRP on the F350 is close to 28 thousand dollars right? That's just the outboard. No rigging, no cables, no throttle control box, no boat. I could buy a mighty nice boat for 30 grand with the same power in an IO.

Who pays MSRP on anything?
I'm going to repower in the Spring. I was just quoted an F250 with digital shift and throttle for $16,590. The F350 with digital would set me back $23,670.

How much does a 300HP or 400 HP EFI, freshwater cooled, Mercrusier with outdrive, electronic shift and throttle cost?