City outlawed me owning boats or working on them (MN, USA)

BARKLEY

Banned
Joined
May 6, 2011
Messages
167
Re: City outlawed me owning boats or working on them (MN, USA)

Hey, folks;

I've been boating all summer so I haven't posted much, plus in the last three months or so I've been unable to do any boat work at all due to legal issues.

I've been fighting a battle with the City of Brooklyn Park, MN about my boats. Some of you may have heard of this town, it's where Jesse Ventura (later governor of MN) was Mayor 1991-1995. Currently I have my 22 foot Sea Ray that I've been working on rebuilding for 2 years, most of that time indoors in my attached garage. I also have a 28 foot Bayliner that I bought salvaged to get some parts off of and maybe refit for use or sale. Both are in my driveway. They're not the prettiest things in the world, but they're mine.

Relatively recently, the city has issued me citations for code violations. One of the major items they're trying to force me to change is that they interpret the city code to forbid what they call "repair services". The code section is this one:

Vocations and avocations in residential districts. (1) Repair services. Repair services are limited to those appliances or other goods small enough to be carried by one person. Motor and recreational vehicles and equipment and small engine repair are not permitted except for minor emergency repairs and minor maintenance to autos, non-commercial trucks, or recreational vehicles and equipment that are licensed to residents of the property, provided they can be completed within a 24-hour period or are conducted inside a garage or accessory structure and are in compliance with the City Code. Vehicle painting will not be permitted in residential districts.


In case anyone's interested in the full city code, it's online here:


If you read the above, the letter of the law is that no work that's not minor maintenance can be performed on any vehicle (cars, trucks, motorcycles, trailers, etc) recreational vehicle, recreational equipment (boats, snowmobiles, etc) or small engine (lawnmowers, rototillers, etc) within the city. Note that despite the title wording, it's not just for home businesses, they apply it to everyone, even people doing work on their own stuff.

Obviously, a lot of people do these things anyway. What Code Enforcement does is ignore anything they don't see... that is, unless someone reports a problem such as "excess noise" or "fumes" or whatever, they don't go looking for issues. Also, if they discover something while investigating something else, they cite that too.

So for 99 percent of the people in the city, including boat owners with smaller boats, garage mechanics, snowmobile owners, or anyone else doing anything on the list above in their garage, home, shed, or basement, they don't hear a thing about what they're doing, and they probably think it's not a problem. It's their home and their property after all, right?

It's if the city decides to take an interest in you that there's a problem. Also, one of your neighbors or anyone driving by can file a complaint with Code Enforcement. Don't think your neighbor's boat looks good? File a complaint. Don't like asians living next door doing their own car repairs? File a complaint. Don't approve of that single mom fixing her lawnmower herself? Complain. The Code Enforcement department has an "anti-retaliation" clause in their policy that forbids them to disclose the source of complaints. So feel free to harass anyone you like... the law is written so broadly that everyone is guilty of something, and the city will never tell them it was you.

It gets worse for me. The city took pictures of my boats, one of which is as mentioned salvage and has a crushed area in the bow (pictures are elsewhere here). The other one I molded a new upper hull and cap for and haven't finished painting yet since I've been avoiding doing anything the city can point out as a problem lately. Code Enforcement's view is that "they aren't functional boats" and therefore are a "nuisance" and must be stored inside or removed. Obviously the 28 footer can't go inside, even if I had my whole garage empty. The 22 can just barely fit, but I'd have to find somewhere to put 2/3 of my garage contents, and it can't be outside.

What the city is really saying in my opinion is "those aren't nice pretty boats, get rid of them". They choose to believe that any boat not currently operational is "junk" and therefore a nuisance. They point out that I can't legally repair them inside my garage or property anyway.

My point of view is that I'm a citizen of this country with a legal right (and perhaps basic human right) to pursue my hobbies. If the city wants to avoid problems with noise or pollution then they need to specifically write laws for that, not blanket ban all work. Also, if they're going to make a law, it should apply to everyone, not just the unlucky few who get reported or sold down the river. If they aren't going to apply the law to everyone equally, it shouldn't apply to anyone.

I'm in the middle of a hearing process to see if they'll back off. At this point it doesn't look like it. Although they have discretion in some things, they choose to interpret the city code literally and in the most restrictive fashion with me. So I don't expect much from the process, especially since the whole thing seems designed to avoid giving residents any chance to fight citations and fines.

As things stand now, I'm going to end up in state court arguing that the city's ordinance(s) are overly broad and criminalize all kinds of otherwise legal pursuits, and therefore should be invalid. I don't want to and can't afford a lawyer's time, but I don't have much of a choice. I can't go to conciliation (small claims) court since they can't issue injunctions to order this behavior stopped.

Since the city inspector also decided to walk around my yard and photograph everything he felt was infringing (from the grass length to the woodpile) without a search warrant, I may sue the city for violating my rights, too. Even after I pointed out the 4th amendment to them, they said they were complying with their rules. More money for lawyers.

I'd appreciate it if anyone reading this who can offer pointers to legal case law specific to cities and boats or repair services can send me a note. I'm considering polling boating interest groups like BoatUS for any help they can offer, they must have members in town.

Also, if any of you live in or know anyone who lives in Brooklyn Park MN and who works on boats, cars, small engines, snowmobiles, or any recreational equipment or vehicles on their property inside or out, have them at least read this and be warned.

FYI, I'm trying to work with our city council to get the law changed, but so far no real response. I'm thinking of setting up a web site detailing the exact laws as above and explaining to people what Code Enforcement can do if they get turned in. All the classic car enthusiasts, snowmobilers, motorcyclists, boat owners, and moped gang members in town should be given a chance to contact the city and express their feelings about being outlaws.

Comments and information/pointers welcome,

Erik

PS: Don't even get me started on their definition of "firewood"

Quit crying, and MOVE!!!!!!!!!!! OOP's is that ok????
 

lil buggy

Senior Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Sep 24, 2011
Messages
766
Re: City outlawed me owning boats or working on them (MN, USA)

foodfisher,
agreed however,
with an agreement of use of your land, you should be able to maintain ownership.(take to a notary if your nervous)
an easement on the other hand would be permenant
just thinken.

still think that he is is the one that keeps turnin you in outa raspberry envy:mad:
 

Kiwi Phil

Commander
Joined
Jun 23, 2003
Messages
2,182
Re: City outlawed me owning boats or working on them (MN, USA)

I know I am not very bright, but why don't you just clean the place up to meet your Local Authorities request.
Think about it - you have probably spent more time arguing with them, and making your point here, than it would take to conform to the neighbourhood standard.
Once you do that, everybody, including yourself, will live happily and in harmony.
If you refuse, then accept this issue will never end for you.
That is the society we all live in.
Sorry.

Cheers
Phillip
 

erikgreen

Captain
Joined
Jan 8, 2007
Messages
3,105
Re: City outlawed me owning boats or working on them (MN, USA)

I know I am not very bright, but why don't you just clean the place up to meet your Local Authorities request.
Think about it - you have probably spent more time arguing with them, and making your point here, than it would take to conform to the neighbourhood standard.
Once you do that, everybody, including yourself, will live happily and in harmony.
If you refuse, then accept this issue will never end for you.
That is the society we all live in.
Sorry.

Cheers
Phillip

Reading this, it's kind of like you're saying to me "It would take less energy to just plow your whole garden under than to complain about it here" or "Really, it'd be a lot easier to just euthanize that dog so the city would leave you alone."

I think you're missing the point entirely.

The code enforcement department is inventing rules and bending others to force me to get rid of something I value, which everyone else is allowed to have. They're being bullies, and I hate bullies. I tried just paying the fine and forgetting it once before, but it didn't work... we're doing this again. If I don't step on them hard, they'll just keep coming back for more fines.

Yeah, it'd be easier just to go along with what they want. The easy way isn't always the right way. Maybe I'm old fashioned or naive, but I believe you have to fight for what you believe is right. If everyone just goes along with what the government wants, you get tyranny in small steps. Your freedom gets nibbled to death by ducks.

I really, really don't understand the attitude and philosophy of the people who keep saying "Just go along with it and you'll get them to leave you alone". Are these the people who aren't outraged that the government takes a third of their income and wastes most of it, but rather are grateful that the government allows them to keep so much of their own money?

This Thursday is my follow-up inspection as agreed to in the hearing. I'm pretty sure they'll pass on the driveway except for the boats, and they'll probably argue about the wood pile too, plus a bunch of other nonsense. I'll video record the inspection, if it has interesting bits I'll maybe share.

If they drop everything, then I'll maybe let things drop. More likely, our next stop will probably be district court.

Erik
 

erikgreen

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Joined
Jan 8, 2007
Messages
3,105
Re: City outlawed me owning boats or working on them (MN, USA)

Quit crying, and MOVE!!!!!!!!!!! OOP's is that ok????

Read back a ways. I can't move except by walking away from my mortgage. Believe me, it's still an option (it's plan D or so, with A and B still in the works at this point).

Erik

PS: If you're willing to give me a gift of $45,000 or so, I'll happily take your advice, and stop "crying".
 

Tail_Gunner

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Joined
Jan 13, 2006
Messages
6,237
Re: City outlawed me owning boats or working on them (MN, USA)

Read back a ways. I can't move except by walking away from my mortgage. Believe me, it's still an option (it's plan D or so, with A and B still in the works at this point).

Erik

PS: If you're willing to give me a gift of $45,000 or so, I'll happily take your advice, and stop "crying".


Erik your backing your self into a corner and your are swinging that i will give you. Yeah you can fight city hall but it will take a some funds....Sometime's you just have to let go and never forget this experience...No its not worth moving..you just have a healthly male ego which i find refreshing....But sometimes you live for another fight..

Now want to win at all costs.....Change the nature of the game...change the rules...
 

lil buggy

Senior Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Sep 24, 2011
Messages
766
Re: City outlawed me owning boats or working on them (MN, USA)

Eric,
my gut is tellin me its the raspberries:eek:
did you try talking to that neighbor?
talk to that neighbor and get thru this inspection
and get back to working on your boats.

no need to conform!;) to others beliefs
learn the system,
work the system,
own the system
let me know how it works out!
 

lil buggy

Senior Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Sep 24, 2011
Messages
766
Re: City outlawed me owning boats or working on them (MN, USA)

i mean,
they will keep re inventing the rules till you figure out who you upset
(they wont complain, and the code enforcement officer will go back to deciding which doughnut he should eat)
and then and only then will you be able to get passed your current plight.
and then when you do you cant forget what you went thru,
you are obligated by your countrymen
to make sure the system doesn't have the holes in it that you fell thru.

i wish you all the best in your current situation,
sometimes you just gotta calmly step back and figure out how you glassed your hand into
oops' exxtra long,,, peanut buttered(patend pending)lol hull
 

Lyle29464

Lieutenant
Joined
Mar 10, 2009
Messages
1,261
Re: City outlawed me owning boats or working on them (MN, USA)

1. Remove the parts you want from the bayliner.
2. Post boat on CL $100.00
3. City will be happy
4. Neighbors will be happy.
5. Store other boat for a few months. ( thinks will die out) Have neighbors sigh paper giving up rights to your property. leave gardens be.

Problem over. you have beer, money, parts. no worries and the bonus. No bayliner.
 

skargo

Banned
Joined
Sep 14, 2008
Messages
4,640
Re: City outlawed me owning boats or working on them (MN, USA)

Read back a ways. I can't move except by walking away from my mortgage. Believe me, it's still an option (it's plan D or so, with A and B still in the works at this point).

Erik

PS: If you're willing to give me a gift of $45,000 or so, I'll happily take your advice, and stop "crying".

Walking away from a signed contract is an option?!?!?!?!
Unbelievable. :rolleyes: I guess it's OK to go back on one's word and honor these days. Makes me sick that people actually do this.
 

jasoutside

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Dec 20, 2009
Messages
13,269
Re: City outlawed me owning boats or working on them (MN, USA)

Yeah, it'd be easier just to go along with what they want. The easy way isn't always the right way. Maybe I'm old fashioned or naive, but I believe you have to fight for what you believe is right. If everyone just goes along with what the government wants, you get tyranny in small steps. Your freedom gets nibbled to death by ducks.

I really, really don't understand the attitude and philosophy of the people who keep saying "Just go along with it and you'll get them to leave you alone". Are these the people who aren't outraged that the government takes a third of their income and wastes most of it, but rather are grateful that the government allows them to keep so much of their own money?

I certainly understand where you are coming from on this Eric. Our "freedoms" are in jeopardy, no doubt about that. I digress since this thread will be locked up in a flash.

In your situation I think I'd comply with the code as the goal is certainly to keep the neighborhood in good condition. Having a pair of boats up on blocks in varying states of being rebuilt, trailers sitting nearby, and various other stuff around the property probably doesn't add to the quality of the neighborhood. I think my suggestion of building a big garage to house (and work on) your stuff enables everybody to win - the neighborhood, the city and you! Doesn't at all mean you are "giving up or giving in".

We all gotta pick and choose our battles. Of all the battles out there, this is one I certainly would not pick though.

However, you have. You feel that this is wrong and you have drawn your line in the sand. I don't think you'll get very far and believe you'll blow cash and time fighting, but, I certainly respect the fact that you are standing for what you believe in.

All the best man:)
 

coFLounder

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Nov 28, 2011
Messages
23
Re: City outlawed me owning boats or working on them (MN, USA)

Looking back over other threads you have been dealing with this for over 4 years now.

http://forums.iboats.com/showthread.php?t=226155

In that thread you were going to get rid of two of your boats and be down to just one. 4 years later you have 2 boat in your drive. I can understand why the town is coming down on you hard. You have had these boats in your drive and I am sure they think they are going nowhere unless they force the issue.

Does it suck you can't have them there? Yes.

Is the city going to back down because you are going to write a bunch of letters and document everything? Most likely not.

You should consider compliance with the rules for awhile and see how things go for you.

Option B would be look at the process for getting the rules changed and try that method. Your efforts to show them they you are being picked on will only make them look even closer at your property and enforce every little thing they can find. To the you are a pain and they want you to go away. They get paid (by your tax dollars) to do this so they can do it all day every day and it costs them nothing.
 

Gun Dog

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Mar 22, 2011
Messages
265
Re: City outlawed me owning boats or working on them (MN, USA)

Looking back over other threads you have been dealing with this for over 4 years now.

Nice catch. It's probably been brewing for more than four years.

Come on Erik. You bring everyone into your problem but your willing to do nothing to help your own situation. You won't find a lawyer to take up sides with you. And from the looks of the posts not much sympathy here either.

I have a load of trailers, boats, lumber and tractors on my small acre. It's just a matter of time before "The Man" is going to ask me to make some changes. I won't want to but I'm prepared to.
 

Bamaman1

Lieutenant Commander
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May 15, 2011
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1,895
Re: City outlawed me owning boats or working on them (MN, USA)

Boy, this posting is gettin' long.

I'm one of those people that the ordinances are written about. It's a product of Attention Deficit Disorder (ADD.) It's all for the good of mankind. There again, the rules should apply amicably across the board--same regulations for all people.

I never pay anyone to do any job for me. I take on more than one job at a time. I get halfway into a project, and sideline myself into another project. It's a textbook case of ADD.

Fortunately, my present projects are limited to inside jobs--carb. rebuilding on dirtbike, painting kitchen ceiling prior to putting in all new electrics, wiring basement circuit and retiling lake house shower.

Unfortunately, you live in a very inhospitable part of the U.S.--weather wise. Cover your boats up and put them into a storage lot until the weather breaks. Then, bring them home to work on them, and return them to the storage lot at night. If you'll stick with one job task, organize the repairs into steps and execute your game plan, you can maybe quickly finish your project.

I think I'll get up and do some painting today. That is, if I can get off this computer. There again, tomorrow looks like a warmer day--better work day.

Good luck!
 

erikgreen

Captain
Joined
Jan 8, 2007
Messages
3,105
Re: City outlawed me owning boats or working on them (MN, USA)

Nice catch. It's probably been brewing for more than four years.

Come on Erik. You bring everyone into your problem but your willing to do nothing to help your own situation. You won't find a lawyer to take up sides with you. And from the looks of the posts not much sympathy here either.


Actually, you're misunderstanding.

If you read the other threads, in 2007 I had three boats and was going to get rid of two and pay the fine. I mentioned that issue earlier in this thread. Also as I mentioned earlier in this thread, I *did* do that. It helped for a while... I actually had some cordial conversations with the code enforcement people in early 2010. It wasn't a long term fix though, partly because the entire code enforcement department was let go/rehired in that time, so I'm dealing with all new people.

If you're thinking that I've just kept the boats I had back then and did nothing to try to fix things, don't. I got rid of two of them as requested at a fair expense, plus I paid the cash fine they cited me for to try to make the city happy. It didn't work. I did have about two years of peace, which was a good start.

So despite what coFlounder suggests, no, this is not the same problem continued. Up until I got this surprise citation, I thought everything was fine.

I've been bending over forward and backward since 2007 to try to keep the city happy, making changes they had no right to ask for, and altering my life and property to try to "fit in". I've finally decided to stand and fight instead.

You're wrong about the lawyer, too. So far I've had two practicing lawyers in the state here tell me I have a good case that's worth pursuing. I'm just waiting for the next step in the city's process (so I can show I made a "good faith" effort to follow it) before I pull the trigger on that.

Erik
 

aspeck

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19,169
Re: City outlawed me owning boats or working on them (MN, USA)

Looking back over other threads you have been dealing with this for over 4 years now.

http://forums.iboats.com/showthread.php?t=226155

In that thread you were going to get rid of two of your boats and be down to just one. 4 years later you have 2 boat in your drive. I can understand why the town is coming down on you hard. You have had these boats in your drive and I am sure they think they are going nowhere unless they force the issue.

Same boats, different year. If it was a one month, or 6 months, or even a year ... but 4 years and the boats are still there???? If I was your neighbor I don't think I would be calling the inspector, but I would be talking to you and asking when you were planning on doing something with the boats I was seeing.
 

erikgreen

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3,105
Re: City outlawed me owning boats or working on them (MN, USA)

Walking away from a signed contract is an option?!?!?!?!
Unbelievable. :rolleyes: I guess it's OK to go back on one's word and honor these days. Makes me sick that people actually do this.

(this is a bit off topic)

Every contract that's worth anything accounts for all possibilities, including breach of the contract. Our legal system has dozens of terms and thousands of cases each year dealing with contract law.

I agree that for some contracts there's no "good out" (marriage comes to mind) but despite the old business ethic that says mortgages should be unbreakable, that's not the case with most of them today. Mortgage lenders encourage that belief though, because it helps their bottom line.

In particular a mortgage contains plenty of verbiage involving what happens if someone defaults. The possibility of default is considered so likely that the cost of initiating the mortgage takes it into account. The percentage rate at which the mortgage was issued is raised (in a normal mortgage process, not like what we had during the real estate bubble) for more risky borrowers.

So as part of my mortgage, I've paid and continue to pay a premium included in the loan price to cover the fact that I may default. In other words, I've *paid* for the right to default if I so choose. Provided I'm willing to accept the consequences, which include potential legal action from the lender to recover any financial loss and the hit to my credit rating, as well as not having the house any more.

It's a simple case of being willing to pay for what you want. In the business world, defaulting on a mortgage isn't even unusual, because there's no "ye olde home buying honor" attached.... it's just a business decision, you do what costs less.

All that said, this isn't something I do lightly. It's a last resort, when I decide that my house isn't worth having any more.

If you're going to throw stones about "going back on one's word", you should note that despite being underwater for two years now I've busted my hump to keep up with payments, including taking out loans from other sources. I've kept up payments with no late fees for well over a year now, when it would have been much easier just to walk like tens of thousands of my fellow citizens have.

I'd do it again if it was to keep my home, the place where I work on boats and things, but if I can't work on boats here any more this isn't much of a home to me.

Erik
 

erikgreen

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3,105
Re: City outlawed me owning boats or working on them (MN, USA)

Same boats, different year. If it was a one month, or 6 months, or even a year ... but 4 years and the boats are still there???? If I was your neighbor I don't think I would be calling the inspector, but I would be talking to you and asking when you were planning on doing something with the boats I was seeing.

As mentioned, different boats.
 

erikgreen

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3,105
Re: City outlawed me owning boats or working on them (MN, USA)

I've noticed an interesting effect recently from all the naysayers.... I've gotten encouraged.

Because now I want to win this, and get the city's behavior squashed flat just so I can prove that they're wrong.

:)
 

dolluper

Captain
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Jul 19, 2004
Messages
3,904
Re: City outlawed me owning boats or working on them (MN, USA)

Might want to get friendly with the new crew....find out their hangout and buy them a coffee and some donuts....I had a little problem with enviormental officier....I met him for a coffee and turned out he told me exactly the legal way around the system...it wasn't painfull atall.....remember they can educate you also could be worth a try and alot cheaper
 
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