City outlawed me owning boats or working on them (MN, USA)

[heycods]

Re: City outlawed me owning boats or working on them (MN, USA)

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Aparently your neighbors dont behold her as a beauty.

 

[sublauxation]

Re: City outlawed me owning boats or working on them (MN, USA)

I've missed some of the trailer registration talk but I brought mine over from WI. The stickers were all removed when I sandblasted it and I couldn't find any ID info so I registered it as home built. It's a single axle trailer and no inspection was needed. They needed ID numbers of some sort so I highly suggest you don't use 8675309 because that's what I used....it's all I could think of at the time. I registered it at the AAA licensing station in St. Louis Park just off 100 and Excelsior with absolutely no problems at all, in fact they're the ones who suggested the home built registration.

 

[erikgreen]

Re: City outlawed me owning boats or working on them (MN, USA)

Yeah, I'm thinking a different registration location for my "home built" trailer will solve that issue.


Here's a quick post-christmas update on my situation.


I got a letter from the city code enforcement manager dated December 21 with a post-inspection followup. It is a train wreck.

Not to type boring details again, but the basic problems with it are:

• He's no longer following his own department's process, instead he's informally trying to "deal", which if I let him would prevent me from contesting the citations, since they wouldn't officially exist.
• He's trying to threaten me with a fine that the hearing officer stayed and he has no authority to re-impose.
• He rolls up the original (resolved items), the remaining warnings which he has not issued citations for, two new items which he hasn't issued warnings for, and a quote of a state of MN law he has no authority to enforce as a list to treat as one issue, rather than creating individual citations which by their process I can contest and discuss.
• He extends an "offer" that in exchange for my correcting his list of items (which he hasn't changed) he will not impose the stayed fine or additional fines (he can't add additional fines without citations anyway).
• Pretty much every item on his list now is based on creative interpretation of law or imaginary city code, and he ignores my pointing this out.

With regard to the idiotic "firewood" issue from the inspection, that's the one he quotes an MN state law for. Apparently he had no luck finding a city statute that prohibited cut up construction debris as firewood provided it wasn't treated or painted. Not to let that stop him, he quotes the state statute prohibiting outdoor burning of treated wood (not wood piles, the actual burning). Despite what his bumbling subordinate says, ordinary lumber is not "full of chemicals" and is not considered "processed", so my neatly stacked wood pile complies with city and state code.

I've asked him to go back to following his department's process, and send me a new letter with citations if he feels they're warranted. I'm going to license the trailer and clean up the new items he added during the inspection (the ones he found despite my telling him that I was letting him on the property for review of the original citation only) even though they are so well hidden I forgot about them myself.

Other than that, I've updated the city manager (his boss) who asked me to keep him in the loop with a summary of the letter, and asked him to set up a meeting with him, me, the city's legal counsel, and the code enforcement manager to make sure the city understands the legal ground it's on.

Erik

 

[erikgreen]

Re: City outlawed me owning boats or working on them (MN, USA)

They needed ID numbers of some sort so I highly suggest you don't use 8675309 because that's what I used....it's all I could think of at the time. I registered it at the AAA licensing station in St. Louis Park just off 100 and Excelsior with absolutely no problems at all, in fact they're the ones who suggested the home built registration.

Damn you, Tommy Tutone Maybe I'll use 6345789?

 

[lncoop]

Re: City outlawed me owning boats or working on them (MN, USA)

I think you should use 5150.

 

[adamjr]

Re: City outlawed me owning boats or working on them (MN, USA)

I'm going top make a simple suggestion. It seems you are at an impasse. If you can get the meeting with all of the mentioned people including legal counsel then now is the time to bring legal counsel. From my experience with these type of things if they have a lawyer then you should too. If it comes to questioning, a decent lawyer can destroy you no matter how correct you may be. It isn't what you say so much as what they decide.

If you consult a lawyer and present him with everything you have, both the statutes and ordinances the city is trying to or claiming to enforce as well as the data from the inspections as well as what you have done and plan to do then he can tell you what to expect. Then bringing the attorney with you the two attorneys can talk. It's kind of one of those "the rest of you be quiet, the grown-ups are talking" kind of discussions. IF you are in the right in any conceivable way and IF the attorneys decide together that YOU have an actionable claim then the city attorney might suggest that the inspection team backs off.

Once again, in my extensive experience with attorneys if they have one and you don't you will lose in the end.

 

[Tail_Gunner]

Re: City outlawed me owning boats or working on them (MN, USA)

I'm going top make a simple suggestion. It seems you are at an impasse. If you can get the meeting with all of the mentioned people including legal counsel then now is the time to bring legal counsel. From my experience with these type of things if they have a lawyer then you should too. If it comes to questioning, a decent lawyer can destroy you no matter how correct you may be. It isn't what you say so much as what they decide.

If you consult a lawyer and present him with everything you have, both the statutes and ordinances the city is trying to or claiming to enforce as well as the data from the inspections as well as what you have done and plan to do then he can tell you what to expect. Then bringing the attorney with you the two attorneys can talk. It's kind of one of those "the rest of you be quiet, the grown-ups are talking" kind of discussions. IF you are in the right in any conceivable way and IF the attorneys decide together that YOU have an actionable claim then the city attorney might suggest that the inspection team backs off.

Once again, in my extensive experience with attorneys if they have one and you don't you will lose in the end.

Well said and lets take it a bit futher


Not to type boring details again, but the basic problems with it are:


He's no longer following his own department's process, instead he's informally trying to "deal", which if I let him would prevent me from contesting the citations, since they wouldn't officially exist.
He's trying to threaten me with a fine that the hearing officer stayed and he has no authority to re-impose.
He rolls up the original (resolved items), the remaining warnings which he has not issued citations for, two new items which he hasn't issued warnings for, and a quote of a state of MN law he has no authority to enforce as a list to treat as one issue, rather than creating individual citations which by their process I can contest and discuss.
He extends an "offer" that in exchange for my correcting his list of items (which he hasn't changed) he will not impose the stayed fine or additional fines (he can't add additional fines without citations anyway).
Pretty much every item on his list now is based on creative interpretation of law or imaginary city code, and he ignores my pointing this out.

Erik all you need to do is document this point by point..not just state it. You said your a civil servant you know how the system works. This individual does have oversight. Time to research it all find the guidlines and if he is just shooting form the hip....demonstrate that to his superiors and what is important here is get it in writing what they are going to let him have that lattitude to do as he pleases.

If you get that in writing that gives a attourney all the cannon fodder he needs (or she). No more talk just file a lawsuit do not threaten a suit file it..Theres a world of difference. Make sure the city attourneys no right up front along with the mayor and city manager of the suit...things dont always go up hill as they should

 

[erikgreen]

Re: City outlawed me owning boats or working on them (MN, USA)

Time for another quick update.

I got an e-mail from the manager of the enforcement department responding to my e-mail about his informal and error filled letter. He basically stated that that was an official letter and re-stated his attitude of "I'm right".

It also looks like the city manager talked to him, however, since the manager was CCed on this email as was the city's general counsel

So I took the time to reply back to his points in specific legal language, noting my responses to each (again) and why I found his reasoning to be flawed.

I listed the specific violations of my rights that have taken place as part of this mess.

I also concluded with an explicit statement of my desire to avoid court, but I did describe specifically what I was considering, noting that I was talking about a civil suit in the 8th circuit alleging civil rights violations and unethical and criminal behavior on the part of the city, which would require me to seek legal costs and damages as well as injunctions halting the operation of that city department and possibly also a vacating of the law banning work behind closed doors.

The next response from the city will tell me a lot.

To keep up my good faith compliance, I have to address the new violations he lists in his letter in the next few days, so I get to clean out a brush pile in January and pay to dispose of it. He also wants (but is not going to get) all dirt holes filled, piles spread out, and grass cover over all bare dirt areas. Can anyone tell me how to grow grass in January in Minnesota? Astroturf and stakes?


Erik

 

[jasoutside]

Re: City outlawed me owning boats or working on them (MN, USA)

The next response from the city will tell me a lot.

Yup.

 

[oops!]

Re: City outlawed me owning boats or working on them (MN, USA)

Can anyone tell me how to grow grass in January in Minnesota? Astroturf and stakes?


Erik

Hydroponics?
My solution would be to make a few chopped strand matt patches...and paint em green !

Sorry to make light of a bad subject Erik,,,,,but I couldnt help my self

 

[mudslinging79]

Re: City outlawed me owning boats or working on them (MN, USA)

hit up neghbors for their old xmas trees and "plant" them in the bare patches?

 

[aspeck]

Re: City outlawed me owning boats or working on them (MN, USA)

My solution would be to make a few chopped strand matt patches...and paint em green !

Again oops! has to show the superiority of 'glass over tin. There are some situations that tin will only aggrevate!

 

[erikgreen]

Re: City outlawed me owning boats or working on them (MN, USA)

If you post a step-by-step on how to turn aluminum sheet into a grass replica, I'll give it some serious thought

 

[erikgreen]

Re: City outlawed me owning boats or working on them (MN, USA)

Okay, time for a quick update.


I got a letter last Saturday from the city's law firm. I didn't read it until Sunday morning (didn't check mail late Saturday).

I won't type the whole thing here, but the following are the salient points:

* The city's attorney discussed the points I made in my last email with the city manager and inspector

* The inspector is moving the deadline for "cleanup" of current items on the list to the 17th from the 9th

* The city's current view is that the items discussed in the original hearing were not cleaned up on December 15th when inspected

* The city's attorney does not wish for further e-mail debate, but rather says that "the hearing officer process is the proper forum for resolution of those issues"

* City staff will re-inspect the property on January 18th. If items required to be corrected by Jan 17th remain uncorrected, the city will issue administrative citations for them, after which I can request a hearing on the citations.


So in short, the city is back using the process I wanted them to use and that is defined by their own staff, and their attorney has discussed the points in my letter with the inspector (would have loved to be a fly on the wall for that one).

I'm probably going to clean up the brush pile anyway (I already got rid of one old pallet that was hiding between my garage and fence) but otherwise everything is going to stay the way it is until the 17th. If the inspector hasn't wised up by then, I expect a citation letter which I'll then schedule a hearing for. At the hearing I expect to force them to prove which laws they're trying to use, which they can't, so it's my hope their citation will get tossed.

I'm not going to allow them any further access to the property without a warrant simply because every time I have done so they've used the opportunity to put the screws to me. They won't like that, but tough. They can inspect from the street or the neighbors' places.

I did manage, after three trips to the DMV, to get the boat trailer plates and registration. I started out trying to be honest ("it's a frankenstein trailer made from parts from a WI boat trailer plus replacements plus some parts made from scrap steel") and watched the DMV lady dance around telling me to lie on the paperwork for 10 minutes - she can't actually tell me to lie or omit things of course. I've never seen anyone other than a lawyer dance around the truth so well.

Later that day I tried again with a different form and 4 pictures of the trailer, telling the truth but omitting background ("it's scrap steel I got for free") instead of ("I got the trailer for free with a boat I bought, but it wasn't road worthy") to avoid having to do a title search in WI (which I couldn't do anyway, the trailer has no serial number). I added up the cost of all the trailer repair parts and it came to $80 I could document. Total price for the plates with a 4500 lb GVW sticker was $45. I'll have to renew annually.

So, that's taken care of. Only took 6 hours of paperwork and driving back and forth for photos.

Erik

 

[foodfisher]

Re: City outlawed me owning boats or working on them (MN, USA)

You are one patient individual. I like your style. Stand behind your beliefs until proved wrong.

 

[lil buggy]

Re: City outlawed me owning boats or working on them (MN, USA)

Eric,
soooo what happened?
we have been waiting patiently...
hope things turn around for you

 

[erikgreen]

Re: City outlawed me owning boats or working on them (MN, USA)

Well, not much yet.

I saw a guy from the city that I've never seen before in front of my house two days ago... he was walking back to his car across the edge of my neighbor's property, don't know if he had permission from them (I doubt it though).

No letters or anything else from the city yet.

I'll let you know as soon as something happens though.

Talked to a city council member about the bad law banning all work again, she's getting her staff revved up for the new year and is looking into it now.

Erik

 

[lil buggy]

Re: City outlawed me owning boats or working on them (MN, USA)

i thought they were reinspecting on the 18th?
maybe they were doing the reinspection
who knows maybe they backed off

 

[Kiwi Phil]

Re: City outlawed me owning boats or working on them (MN, USA)

Tell you something guys, and i certainly don't want to upset anyone here, but what is going down here has to be taken seriously.

The developed world has taken some big changes over the past decade regarding Town Planning, By-Laws, Town-City Codes, Compliance etc. Call it what you like, it's all a similar animal.

There are standards, and you, as citizens, are to comply.
If you are outside these standards then you will be delt with, maybe like Erik is experiencing.
This talk about rights etc is not relevant to Erik - it is relevant to his neighbours.
They have the right to make a formal complaint, which must be investigated, and if it is found to be legitimate, then the issue can never be set aside, brushed under the carpet etc.

Now my opinion is this - if the council person comes to you and says you are etc etc, then get a very clear understanding of what your liability is, then spend your time rectifying it. Then get on with living your life.

You may think that because I come from the opposite end of the earth things are different. Wrong! one hundred times, or more. The rules that are being enforced are common to developed western nations - yes there may be minor differences - but this is what separates us from the underdeveloped world.

For those who have not yet come in contact with this issue, if you are buying land and buildings, then be very careful that your land is zoned for the usage you want it for, that you understand fully that usage, and that all the buildings have legitimate permits and fully comply with the code.
Down here, sellers are being informed that this shed, that patio or whatever, don't have permits, or that concrete pad is over a city sewer pipe or whatever. The seller is advise any buyer will be given 90 days to rectify and make fully compliant all 'outstanding or illegal works'.
That will kill a sale quicker than anything.
If this sort of thing hasn't happened in your locality, then be aware, it is coming.

Personally, I think it a great idea.
It protects me by disallowing say a tow truck operator, bringing home endless auto wrecks to dismantle in his yard and sell on say ebay.
I live in a nice street, I live within my land usage, and I will be the first to complain if any of my neighbours go outside the rules.

I am not judging you Erik - that is not my point.

Cheers
Phillip

 

[erikgreen]

Re: City outlawed me owning boats or working on them (MN, USA)

EDIT: Sorry, erik, we do not discuss politics here.