City outlawed me owning boats or working on them (MN, USA)

[oops!]

Re: City outlawed me owning boats or working on them (MN, USA)

erik......i have a bit of a personal opinion that i will keep to myself for a while, i want to see how this thread and your mind set progresses first.

however........you are good at building boats. you have allways done your homework, studied.....and got good builds form it.
(aside from dragging them down the interstate)

may i make a suggestion.?

go into business.

if you were to get a small shop with a yard......take on a few transom stringer jobs. you could work on your boat between jobs.....store your boats in the shop yard. the transom stringer jobs could pay the rent of the shop, and give you a few extra jobs....
at 4k for a full gut....and less than 1500 in materials...
if you did it part time a few hours a week....that would be more than enough to give you a decent wage for your part time efforts...
the city would be off your back....your financial picture would improve.....you would even have left over cash to finish your builds......and your neighbours would be happy......right up to the time that you stick a garden hose thru there mail slot and run away...lol.

i know you are good enough to rebuild a full gut in a few hours a week.....you have the tools...the know how....all you need is a shop and a customer.

shops can be found for cheap.....the building land lords are dyeing to get someone in to there shops....and the rent will be cheap....coustomers can be gotten off craigslist or the local marina.

you can do it bud.....

cheers
ward

 

[StevNimrod]

Re: City outlawed me owning boats or working on them (MN, USA)

When a lawyer says you have a case, it typically means one of two things: (1) you actually have a legitimate case, or (2) you have a case that wouldn't damage his reputation by handling and can be strung out long enough to pay next semester's tuition. For all the bad rap lawyers get, undergraduate isn't cheap and neither is law school. If that's a problem, do it yourself (pro se).

Whatever you decide, there are a few things you certainly don't want to get caught saying if this ever sees the inside of a courtroom. The first thing is making this about "freedom". Once you go down than road, a savvy judge is going to get you saying that people should be able to do a bunch of things that are unreasonable (an often cited example is the first amendment measured against yelling fire in a crowd when no fire exists). Point is, don't get yourself in a position where you're forced, for the sake of logical continuity, to get in front of an unreasonable stance. Think about where it's going before you bring it up. You also might want to think about avoiding, where possible, use of the word "fair". Life is not fair and not a whole lot is designed to truly promote fairness. What you're actually after is getting the fact finder (judge, hearing officer, etc.) to: (1) agree that your position is reasonable, (2) agree that the other side's position is unreasonable, or (3) understand that if he find in favor of the other side the decision is likely to get overturned. Whatever you have to say, if it doesn't further one of those three outcomes, not only is it a waste of air (or ink) but also gives the other side the opportunity to pick you apart on irrelevant subjects. Once that credibility goes, it can be difficult to recover.

The Code at ? 152.262 (B)(1) has an or clause. You have 24 hours to make the repair OR have to do it inside a garage or accessory stucture UNLESS you're painting a vehicle, which is prohibited.

Maybe more important is the purpose of the code:

? 152.260 PURPOSE.

This subchapter provides standards that accessory uses and structures in residential districts are required to meet. These standards allow the property owner to use the property in ways that are normally associated with the principal residential use of the property and allow the city appropriate means to maintain the residential nature of neighborhoods.

What you might want to argue, succinctly, is that you are using your property in a way that a reasonable boat owner would, and that this use of your property does not alter the residential nature of your neighborhood.

They might come back with some issues on the smaller boat and probably claim it doesn't have value. Tread carefully here, or you're going to walk right into a trap and sound like one of the people from the show "Hoarders". You might want to suggest that, while it doesn't appear the boat has any current market value, you do have a lot of sweat equity in the boat and you plan to convert that into market value once the project is completed.

As far as covering goes, that's how boats are customarily stored for the winter and you could probably make a reasonable argument that the primary purpose of covering is protection for snow and ice accumulation.

What you're really going to have to look out for is elected vs. appointed judges. All else being equal, most elected judges aren't going to want to lead with the chin on this one regardless of the facts.

All you really want to do is be able to continue your hobby, which is a productive use of your free time compared to some of the stuff people get wrapped up in. Do some research, and maybe see if a local appraiser could tell you if the boats would actually devalue adjacent properties. Also see what, exactly, the city is after and try to help them appreciate that they may be off base.

As far as trying to out-muscle a city: good luck. The city attorney is probably on a salary, so the only expenses the city incurs are costs (photocopying, etc.). If the results of your research indicate that you are doing no harm, communicate this to the city, and hopefully someone will realize that some things just aren't worth pursuing. But if you start off twisting arms, don't expect things to end well. Fair? No. But again, it's not designed that way. It's a simple matter of resource.

Whichever way you go, do it 100%, and regardless of the outcome it least it won't be for want of effort.

 

[erwinner]

Re: City outlawed me owning boats or working on them (MN, USA)

All I could think to do would be to take it all on a very personal, one-on-one level. Lots of homemade cookies (and leading questions) for all the neighbors, and friendly conversation with whichever city enforcement officer would talk to me.
If people complain, you will have a problem.
If you have a tight-knit group of neighbors with a good understanding as to the expectations of the neatness of the neighborhood and you can keep on good terms with them, you will have less of a problem.
But that just sounds like a HOA, so I gotta be careful what I wish for!
I live in a college town, near the university, in a neighborhood without a HOA, for what it's worth.

 

[Kiwi Phil]

Re: City outlawed me owning boats or working on them (MN, USA)

When a lawyer says you have a case, it typically means one of two things: (1) you actually have a legitimate case, or (2) you have a case that wouldn't damage his reputation by handling and can be strung out long enough to pay next semester's tuition. For all the bad rap lawyers get, undergraduate isn't cheap and neither is law school. If that's a problem, do it yourself (pro se).

Whatever you decide, there are a few things you certainly don't want to get caught saying if this ever sees the inside of a courtroom. etc etc

Crikey, I bet this post has everyone jumping to check StevNimrod profile!!
Good post - I learnt something.
I know what I would do if I was you Erik.
Cheers
Phillip

 

[lil buggy]

Re: City outlawed me owning boats or working on them (MN, USA)

erik......i have a bit of a personal opinion that i will keep to myself for a while, i want to see how this thread and your mind set progresses first.

however........you are good at building boats. you have allways done your homework, studied.....and got good builds form it.
(aside from dragging them down the interstate)

may i make a suggestion.?

go into business.

if you were to get a small shop with a yard......take on a few transom stringer jobs. you could work on your boat between jobs.....store your boats in the shop yard. the transom stringer jobs could pay the rent of the shop, and give you a few extra jobs....
at 4k for a full gut....and less than 1500 in materials...
if you did it part time a few hours a week....that would be more than enough to give you a decent wage for your part time efforts...
the city would be off your back....your financial picture would improve.....you would even have left over cash to finish your builds......and your neighbours would be happy......right up to the time that you stick a garden hose thru there mail slot and run away...lol.

i know you are good enough to rebuild a full gut in a few hours a week.....you have the tools...the know how....all you need is a shop and a customer.

shops can be found for cheap.....the building land lords are dyeing to get someone in to there shops....and the rent will be cheap....coustomers can be gotten off craigslist or the local marina.

you can do it bud.....

cheers
ward

on the money!

Eric,
listen to the man that has walked a mile in your shoes.

the whole point to i boats is to learn from your mistakes and more importantly learn from others.
you have a ton of support on here even though it seems like a green bashing lately,
mostly its i boaters just wanting you to get back to work and make some informative posts.
life, like boats are a compromise!

best of luck going forward

 

[erikgreen]

Re: City outlawed me owning boats or working on them (MN, USA)

erik......i have a bit of a personal opinion that i will keep to myself for a while, i want to see how this thread and your mind set progresses first.

however........you are good at building boats. you have allways done your homework, studied.....and got good builds form it.
(aside from dragging them down the interstate)

may i make a suggestion.?

go into business.

if you were to get a small shop with a yard......take on a few transom stringer jobs. you could work on your boat between jobs.....store your boats in the shop yard. the transom stringer jobs could pay the rent of the shop, and give you a few extra jobs....
at 4k for a full gut....and less than 1500 in materials...
if you did it part time a few hours a week....that would be more than enough to give you a decent wage for your part time efforts...
the city would be off your back....your financial picture would improve.....you would even have left over cash to finish your builds......and your neighbours would be happy......right up to the time that you stick a garden hose thru there mail slot and run away...lol.

i know you are good enough to rebuild a full gut in a few hours a week.....you have the tools...the know how....all you need is a shop and a customer.

True... but two things spring to mind. First, there's a world of difference between doing boat work for fun and doing boat work for... well, work. I'm not 100% sure that I'd be able to keep on enjoying the work if I had to do it to put food on the table.

Plus, I'm sort of addicted to making good money at my day job... I have a civil service appointment, which has very good job security, and pays about $45 an hour plus benefits. So I'd have to beat that or at least come sort of close. I'm not great with money, I basically keep up on bills because I make it fast enough to outrun my spending

I might possibly open up a shop at some point for a prototype/small production run machine shop/invention shop, depending on how good a response I get to my products (working on 'em now) but we'll see. Which gives me an idea... custom boat hardware milled from brass or aluminum.

Last day of cleanup today, I'm going to stop by city hall and make sure my licenses for trailers are up to date.

StevNimrod, thanks for the advice. I did type up a long well thought out response, but my browser hung as I was doing it, so I lost it. Your thinking parallels mine, though.

Erik

 

[oops!]

Re: City outlawed me owning boats or working on them (MN, USA)

part time buddy.......a few hours at night a week.....possibly 6 hours total......1 transom stringer job a month is all you need. you are good enough to bang that off in just a few days.

a rip and strip is 8 hours...........a re install of a transom is 4......strings.....another 6......

 

[Fly Rod]

Re: City outlawed me owning boats or working on them (MN, USA)

The city is not outlawing you from owning a boat nor working on a boat. There are appropriate places to keep a boat and work on them called a boat yard.

 

[waterinthefuel]

Re: City outlawed me owning boats or working on them (MN, USA)

I wouldn't be a good HOA member. I would do just the opposite of complaining, I'd be over there bugging you the entire time you had that boat not to get it out of the yard, but if you would allow me to help you. I love working on old stuff like that, I restored an old tractor from the early 70s. I eat up stuff like that. Like seeing an old restored airplane take to the skies once again, I love seeing old restored boats take to the water. Both bring a tear to my eyes that someone cares enough to put forth the effort to do that for either a boat or plane. It's equally sad for me, however, when I see a once beautiful boat or plane neglected and slowly going to waste. That tears me up.

 

[erikgreen]

Re: City outlawed me owning boats or working on them (MN, USA)

The city is not outlawing you from owning a boat nor working on a boat. There are appropriate places to keep a boat and work on them called a boat yard.

As far as I know, there are none in this state. The few marinas that do storage don't typically allow work in their storage areas.

If there were boat yards near me, I'd still have the expectation that I could do work on my own boat in my own garage with the doors closed, provided I didn't generate noise, toxic fumes, etc.

I shouldn't have to pay for extra real estate to do reasonable, ordinary boat work when I already pay taxes to own my current land.

Erik

 

[V153]

Re: City outlawed me owning boats or working on them (MN, USA)

Well. I live in an unincorporated area. Never had a problem parking boats, only have 2 1/2 at the moment. But I did have to stand in front of a judge once & promise not to put up any more storage sheds ...?

 

[erikgreen]

Re: City outlawed me owning boats or working on them (MN, USA)

Time for a bit of an update.

I had my inspection yesterday, it was cordial enough.

Beforehand, I had informed the inspectors in e-mail that A) I was allowing them onto my property only for the purposes of verifying that I had corrected the issues discussed in our first hearing and B) I would be recording them.

We walked around looking at items and discussing them. They agreed that the initial issues discussed in the hearing were no longer a problem (like I had been telling them since this started, they were in fact cleaned up before I got the citation).

They did walk around to places they hadn't been and pointed out some new things they thought should be fixed. I let them do this rather than object to avoid antagonism, but I did note it in my documentation for later discussion.

Other than the few new items (a brush pile they complained about, and a pallet hidden between my fence and my garage that I'd forgotten) they still have issues with A) My wood pile B) A piece of boat bow I've saved for a decoration for my pond C) My trailer D) My engine hoist and E) My boats.

In order, they are saying:

A) I'm not allowed to have wood in my wood pile that is not split tree pieces. One of the inspectors is claiming that he knows that's the case because "it says that right in the code where he lives"... in another town.

B) I kept a piece of a boat bow that I'm going to stick in my pond for a fountain next summer. It's not visible from the street, or in fact from most neighbors' yards right now, but they called it out as a problem since it's "not normal decoration". I should tell them how offensive I find concrete garden statues, I think.

C) My boat trailer is legally parked and legally licensed, but they maintain that it must be registered with the DMV and show as owned by me. It has a lifetime license that a previous owner paid for, so my name's not on it. According to my reading of the city code, I'm required to *own* vehicles (which this trailer is) stored on my property, not have them registered to me. I did try to fix this one even though it's not my problem by going to the DMV to get the name on the registration changed. They said they couldn't do it without a bill of sale showing change of ownership from the person listed on the license... and they can't tell me that name due to privacy laws. So, if I want to get the name changed I have to track down the guy I bought it from years ago, get a bill of sale from him (I may have one, or not) and if he's not the owner of the license, continue tracking backward from him until I identify the licensee. To make things more complicated, I can't legally re-license the trailer! DMV says it has a license, so I must change that one, I can't just get a new one.

D) My engine hoist. It's outside in the driveway because it's too tall to go in the garage. It's set up as a trailer,so I can take it places. The city inspectors call it "commercial equipment" and say it can't be stored anywhere on residential property. I say it's recreational equipment, since in the city code "commercial" is defined by commercial use, not equipment type. I tried to license it as a trailer, but DMV says it's not a vehicle or legally a trailer, so I can't.

E) The city maintains that "because these boats are not ready for the water they are considered abandoned" and therefore must be removed. This is basically a total fabrication, as the abandoned vehicle laws don't apply (they're not vehicles) and there are no laws governing derelict or non functioning recreational equipment, except the general junk laws, which only apply if the items in question are in a big collection of junk and are creating a nuisance by attracting vermin or causing a public safety hazard. Even the definitions of "abandoned" in the city code can't be construed to apply to my boats. In a nutshell, I think the inspectors are inventing laws here for purposes of achieving their goal, which is to get rid of the boats in response to the complaint they received.

All in all, the inspection went about like I thought it would. The only items remaining are the ones above plus the new items they discovered (against my consent) this time.

I expect to receive a letter from them shortly detailing their remaining concerns, after which we will schedule another hearing. I intend to force them to point out the specific laws I am supposedly violating in that hearing, and when they can't I'll request a dismissal of their claims. If that doesn't happen for some reason, we'll go to court.

I also have been communicating with the city manager, informing him of our progress, and explaining that I didn't care for his inspectors treating this visit as a chance to search for new violations and most especially didn't care for them inventing laws on the fly, or even quoting other townships' laws to get me to comply with them.

More news as events warrant.

Erik

 

[erikgreen]

Re: City outlawed me owning boats or working on them (MN, USA)

I wouldn't be a good HOA member. I would do just the opposite of complaining, I'd be over there bugging you the entire time you had that boat not to get it out of the yard, but if you would allow me to help you.

Heh... if you did that, I'd probably offer to give you one of them to work on

 

[DECK SWABBER 58]

Re: City outlawed me owning boats or working on them (MN, USA)

My boat trailer is legally parked and legally licensed, but they maintain that it must be registered with the DMV and show as owned by me. It has a lifetime license that a previous owner paid for, so my name's not on it. According to my reading of the city code, I'm required to *own* vehicles (which this trailer is) stored on my property, not have them registered to me. I did try to fix this one even though it's not my problem by going to the DMV to get the name on the registration changed. They said they couldn't do it without a bill of sale showing change of ownership from the person listed on the license... and they can't tell me that name due to privacy laws. So, if I want to get the name changed I have to track down the guy I bought it from years ago, get a bill of sale from him (I may have one, or not) and if he's not the owner of the license, continue tracking backward from him until I identify the licensee. To make things more complicated, I can't legally re-license the trailer! DMV says it has a license, so I must change that one, I can't just get a new one.
Erik

I have been following this with interest because where I live, (hicksville) I could have 30 boats in various states of disrepair, as long they are not attracting vermon, offending neighbors, etc.

BUT.........I don't understand this trailer thing. Erik you seem like a pretty bright guy, but you are really "missing the boat" on this one. Any motor vehicle (ie: trailer) has to be registered in your name. I think this is pretty much true in all 50 states. IT IS YOUR PROBLEM, you should have gotten a bill of sale years ago, and registered it in your name.

 

[lil buggy]

Re: City outlawed me owning boats or working on them (MN, USA)

souds like it went better than i thought it would,

as far as the trailer goes register it as "homeade"
thats my states answer for your situation pa
yes you gotta have it weighed(certified slip) inspected(if dual axels), take pics of it and send in for a new title and registration.

i am guessing you can do the same with the hoist trailer

look oops has to do that with the stretch as the old one cant really apply

there is no avioding the fact that if you cant " appease "the one that filed the complaint you wont really get any further easily anyway
if you can get the "complainer" to withdraw his complaint.
then you will have just one last visit from the code officers and we can close the chapter and get back to work

if that part is skipped it will never be enough to pass the code officers.
they are doing there job even though it really doesnt seem like they know what that is
i am sure each time they show up at your place the complainer is smileing at your pain.

on another note i am proud of you!
as mad as you are about all this you didnt punch one of those guys in the eye

please take my advice and try to figure out if its the raspberry lover,
thats my bet

 

[r.j.dawg]

Re: City outlawed me owning boats or working on them (MN, USA)

I have been following this with interest because where I live, (hicksville) I could have 30 boats in various states of disrepair, as long they are not attracting vermon, offending neighbors, etc.

BUT.........I don't understand this trailer thing. Erik you seem like a pretty bright guy, but you are really "missing the boat" on this one. Any motor vehicle (ie: trailer) has to be registered in your name. I think this is pretty much true in all 50 states. IT IS YOUR PROBLEM, you should have gotten a bill of sale years ago, and registered it in your name.

Yes, same here in the frozen north. I don't understand the registration problem, or the lack there of. Why the reluctance??

 

[erikgreen]

Re: City outlawed me owning boats or working on them (MN, USA)

Well, I'm just not used to doing that for trailers I guess. I haven't had to pay anything to register it, it has a lifetime license. Also, my other trailer was from WI, so no license at all for that one.

/shrug

I wouldn't mind this if I could just re-register it. I tried to do that, but they said I had to track down the original license. I think I'm going to "modify" the trailer so it counts as home made and just register it new...

Erik

 

[rogerwa]

Erik very sorry to hear that your local gov't is deciding what you can and cannot own based on their idea of property standards.

I have not read the whole thread, but one thing you could do is to file freedom of Information requests for any correspondence between the cit mgr and the inspection department (or any other requests that would seem pertinent). I would be very curious to see what they have been saying about you as it seems they are getting nitpicky, and that probably wouldn't happen on its own.

They are legally bound to comply with the foi requests, and it may become a point of leverage.

 

[korygrandy]

Re: City outlawed me owning boats or working on them (MN, USA)

Good luck to you Eric. I used to live in White Bear Lake, until the HOA I was a part of essentially harrassed me to the point where I moved. I did not sell the property, as you all know I would have lost my arse, so I hung onto it. Apparently I was the problem because my tenants don't receive any of the nastygrams I used to receive. Once your on their radar it's tough to get off. I moved and it worked for me, but I still settled some cash disputes (I still feel were unwarranted to this day :facepalm and moved on with my life at the same time.

It's funny because within the past month a new property management company was hired. It will be interesting to see if the new co is nearly concerned about collecting there piddly little $10 fines for dog poo and visible trash cans as the old co was.

It sounds like you've already seen a change in personell over there at records and the problem still exists so I think you are better off complying, proivng you are in compliance, records agreeing you are in compliance...and then staying in complaince...at least for a few years.

The squeaky wheel gets the attention, I believe your neighbor is the squeaky wheel and unfortunately now your getting the attention from it.

Godspeed.

 

[lil buggy]

Re: City outlawed me owning boats or working on them (MN, USA)

I wouldn't mind this if I could just re-register it. I tried to do that, but they said I had to track down the original license. I think I'm going to "modify" the trailer so it counts as home made and just register it new...

Erik

Eric,
merry christmas to you and your family,
looks like you found a loophole on the trailers
i would change them all and re apply for homade titles

go and talk with your neighbors
make peace happen!
great season for this

all the best to you