Responsible for your wake? maybe not...

Biged007

Petty Officer 2nd Class
Joined
Sep 9, 2010
Messages
176
Re: Responsible for your wake? maybe not...

okay for my .02 the CG was bad enough when they were still under the D.O.T. but since they are now home sec.... God help us all example the CG by law MUST! board a certain Amt of boats per year ( by Law) Quota! I have been boarded 3 times since I brought the boat despite the Aux sticker in my window the last time and get this "permission to come aboard Capt NAH go away. BOY did that rock the boat when asked why I refused I responded Just to break your Balls! well after having to say good nite I wrote down their ## and turned it into Bpt. CG HQ Never heard another word GEEEEEE..... I'm glad that our children are dying to keep us Free!

Yeah and I'm hoping this is being read.
 

scipper77

Commander
Joined
Sep 30, 2008
Messages
2,106
Re: Responsible for your wake? maybe not...

Scipper, why would there be any lawyers involving an insurance claim? No need for that. How about a qualified, licensed (in FL a license is required) insurance ADJUSTER actually conducting an investigation, first? That is what WILL happen, it happens every day. And I can almost guarantee you that the guy's insurance company will assume some liability, but they will say the CG was complicit. (Because they were)
As usual the "sue first" and the "insurance companies cheat everyone" crowd has piped up. Well, you'll all see what the truth is.

Yeah I don't know what I was thinking when I said the other companies lawyer. I really did mean the other companies adjuster. My advice was not to get a lawyer specifically. If you reread my post I said he might be better off being represented by his own insurance company. I was thinking in terms of arbitration or something like that because if the other company denies his claim he would need to go through his insurance.

Anyways, I've been around here to know that you are the insurance expert so I'll just sit back and see what happens at this point.
 

Beefer

Lieutenant Commander
Joined
Aug 4, 2008
Messages
1,737
Re: Responsible for your wake? maybe not...

I'm not sure you need to be talking to him if it's an insurance claim. I feel pretty bad based on what you just said. These things can get ugly.

Do you have any representation in this matter like your own insurance carrier?? If not it's you against his insurance companies lawyer. That is if he is even insured.

Maybe if it's possible you should just try and deal with the coast guard no matter who is at fault.

I contacted him because a) when the CG boarded him, they said he was very nice about it, and was happy to give them his info to pass to me, and b) I know that many people would rather keep the insurance companies out in minor instances. I felt it was comparable to a minor fender-bender, where many people would rather take care of it themselves, rather than risk premium increases or cancellation.

I'm one of the boaters that don't carry full coverage (old boat, cheap). I don't think I'll have any problems recovering any expenses from his insurance now that the CG and local law enforcement is involved. His attitude of 'It's not my fault, you deal with it', along with his saying 'that's what I'm telling my ins. company' (completely different from my story and the CG's, made me feel this may become a royal PITA to get resolved. After talking to the deputy, I believe this will get taken care of relatively quickly.

On a side note, anyone know who/where to get an estimate for the repair? Called 2 marinas today, and they weren't very cooperative....
 

Beefer

Lieutenant Commander
Joined
Aug 4, 2008
Messages
1,737
Re: Responsible for your wake? maybe not...

I googled "boat repairs largo Florida" and came up with quite a few to call. You will probably want to go to someone that does this kind of work more than just the normal "Marina" facilities.

Some examples;

http://www.starmarineinc.com
http://lmdocksideboatrepair.com/
http://petersonmarine.net
http://www.belleairmarine.com

And there are more. Have fun.

Thanks. I'm trying to figure out where I would find 'someone that does this kind of work'. Also, I was moving the boat to the new house in Treasure Island, so the Lar-ghetto area won't be good (need to update my profile). I completely appreciate you having looked.
 

bear_69cuda

Commander
Joined
Oct 10, 2008
Messages
2,109
Re: Responsible for your wake? maybe not...

Sorry to hear about this... I hope all works out for you dude!

What a drag.....
 

Home Cookin'

Fleet Admiral
Joined
May 26, 2009
Messages
9,715
Re: Responsible for your wake? maybe not...

all this over a couple hundred dollars damage. here's the practical solution:
Get a repair estimate
Sport fisher pays you that amount
Sport fisher reports that he paid for the accidental damage, and has the ticket dismissed as a "civil not criminal matter."
You get your damage; he pays for what he did; he doesn't have a violation on record. Insurance companies not involved.
Next case, please.
Why make simple issues complicated?
 

Beefer

Lieutenant Commander
Joined
Aug 4, 2008
Messages
1,737
Re: Responsible for your wake? maybe not...

all this over a couple hundred dollars damage. here's the practical solution:
Get a repair estimate
Sport fisher pays you that amount
Sport fisher reports that he paid for the accidental damage, and has the ticket dismissed as a "civil not criminal matter."
You get your damage; he pays for what he did; he doesn't have a violation on record. Insurance companies not involved.
Next case, please.
Why make simple issues complicated?

That was exactly what my original intentions were, and why I called him. But he copped an attitude immediately saying'not my fault, etc.,'. I was really surprised at his demeanor, and realized quickly that he wasn't go to cooperate. At that point I decided to protect my interests, and made contact with additional officials. Personally, I think he's going about this all wrong, but to each his own I guess...:rolleyes:
 

Bifflefan

Commander
Joined
May 27, 2009
Messages
2,933
Re: Responsible for your wake? maybe not...

yes, if he doesn't pay I will submit to the USCG, but only because I can,

While reading this keep in mind I have no intention of placing blame, rather to show how we have changed as a people in the last 30 years.

Just because you can, is not the best reason to do something, its not a reason at all.
If you were tied to a friends boat and this happened it would have a very different out come.

1st, you would claim it on your insurance. Chasing down someone and asking for their insurance, probably not going to happen with no real boat to boat contact.
2nd, you would be paying out of pocket for the repairs.
3rd, you would have lost a friend trying to make him pay for it. Would you have offered to pay for his boat if the damage had happened to him?

Complain about it all you like, but it is still something is not in anyone's real control, and i'm sure there was no intent to do damage to your's or anyone else's property.

My opinion is, man up and just fix it. Complain and go in the garage and break something. Then bury it down deep and never speak of it again.

We as a people are always looking to find others to blame for every little thing these days. That is a trait we can do with out.
And yes, I have had insurance for 35+ years and only once had made a claim. My house burned down. Burried it down deep and I dont talk about it anymore.
 

Bifflefan

Commander
Joined
May 27, 2009
Messages
2,933
Re: Responsible for your wake? maybe not...

FYI - Here's Florida's Law regarding wakes and responsibility:

F.S.A. Sec. 327.33(2):

(2) Any person operating a vessel upon the waters of this state shall operate the vessel in a reasonable and prudent manner, having regard for other waterborne traffic, posted speed and wake restrictions, and all other attendant circumstances so as not to endanger the life, limb, or property of any person. The failure to operate a vessel in a manner described in this subsection constitutes careless operation. However, vessel wake and shoreline wash resulting from the reasonable and prudent operation of a vessel shall, absent negligence, not constitute damage or endangerment to property. Any person who violates the provisions of this subsection commits a noncriminal violation as defined in s. 775.08.

8 knots (as defined by your observation, and I cant imagine how you can prove his speed) Seems to fit the "reasonable and prudent operation of a vessel shall, absent negligence, not constitute damage or endangerment to property." part of the law to me.
 

ziggy

Admiral
Joined
Jun 30, 2004
Messages
7,473
Re: Responsible for your wake? maybe not...

this just don't seem so hard to me. though, as i read i see that it is...

in my simple way of understanding.
Your boat was under coast guard control and you were not free to leave. They are responsible for any damages, period.
but rather that they were in "care, custody, and control" of your vessel at the time.
this to me is the crux of the situation.
the uscg boarded you. you had no say in it. they were in control of your boat, however they rafted the two together. damage happend to your boat while they were in control, they need to pay up.

the uscg coulda used a little common sense too. if i was rafted up with my buddy and a cruiser went by throwing a big wall of water at us. bet me and my buddy would separate very quickly knowing a wall of water was coming at us and sure to do us damage if we stayed rafted up. the uscg didn't do that either they controlled your boat. they pay up. if the uscg want's there money back let them go get it out of the offending sf.

i suppose it don't work that way. but i'd be mad at the uscg. you didn't ask to be boarded i'd guess.. if not for them, you wouldn't have even been in the situation..
 

H20Rat

Vice Admiral
Joined
Mar 8, 2009
Messages
5,204
Re: Responsible for your wake? maybe not...

If you were tied to a friends boat and this happened it would have a very different out come.
...

We as a people are always looking to find others to blame for every little thing these days. That is a trait we can do with out.

So going back to my previous example, if your car was towed, and the police/towing company got into an accident while towing, you would be entirely fine with it and would just man up and deal with your now totaled car? Yes, the dollar amounts in this case MIGHT be different, but the situation is the same.

A government entity had full control of the boat and was legally responsible. And not only that, the damage was partially caused by their lack of following documented standard procedures. You should NEVER tie up to a railing, that is what the cleats are for. Pure and utter newbie mistake.
 

NYBo

Admiral
Joined
Oct 23, 2008
Messages
7,107
Re: Responsible for your wake? maybe not...

okay for my .02 the CG was bad enough when they were still under the D.O.T. but since they are now home sec.... God help us all example the CG by law MUST! board a certain Amt of boats per year ( by Law) Quota!
Where did you get this bit of intel?
I have been boarded 3 times since I brought the boat despite the Aux sticker in my window the last time and get this "permission to come aboard Capt NAH go away. BOY did that rock the boat when asked why I refused I responded Just to break your Balls! well after having to say good nite I wrote down their ## and turned it into Bpt. CG HQ Never heard another word GEEEEEE..... I'm glad that our children are dying to keep us Free!

Yeah and I'm hoping this is being read.
They don't need your permission to board, and resisting is a criminal offense, so I'm finding your story a little hard to believe.
 

sasto

Captain
Joined
Jun 1, 2010
Messages
3,918
Re: Responsible for your wake? maybe not...

My opinion is, man up and just fix it. Complain and go in the garage and break something. Then bury it down deep and never speak of it again.

We as a people are always looking to find others to blame for every little thing these days.

Why should Beefer "man up"? Whatever happened to personal responsibility. My opinion is the person(s) causing the problem should "man up".

I used to travel over 7000 miles on rivers and oceans, and yes, I have caused a small amount of damage to another vessel or 2. Was my responsibility and I "maned up".

I say..... keep up your efforts, Beefer, :cool:
 

2ndtry

Petty Officer 1st Class
Joined
Mar 23, 2010
Messages
239
Re: Responsible for your wake? maybe not...

3rd, you would have lost a friend trying to make him pay for it. Would you have offered to pay for his boat if the damage had happened to him?

It wasn't his friend, it was a random stranger breaking the law.

Complain about it all you like, but it is still something is not in anyone's real control, and i'm sure there was no intent to do damage to your's or anyone else's property.

1. His speed was completely under his control
2. Intent has NOTHING to do with it.
 

Beefer

Lieutenant Commander
Joined
Aug 4, 2008
Messages
1,737
Re: Responsible for your wake? maybe not...

Thanks for the backing, and thanks also to those who feel differently. I respect your opinions, although I don't have to agree with them.

With that said, I think I need to recap some of the details that it appears some may have missed and add a couple of things I've learned about the offending vessel since this has happened;

It was past sunset, and was dark. Additional efforts are required to operate a vessel safely at night. That does not mean it's ok to break the law by going fast enough through a bridge throwing ANY kind of wake, or break the law by going fast enough to throw any wake in a clearly posted No Wake Zone.

The offending vessel's speed was fast enough to throw a ~2' wake. When I said 8 knots, I was purely guessing, and trying to be conservative. It was probably faster. We seriously got knocked around hard, I'm not a lightweight when it comes to rough water, and believe me, if I was in a small boat (like a 16' BR), there would have been a very good chance of someone going over.

The USCG boat was lit up like a Christmas tree, with 3 flood on my deck, and the flashing blue going.

When boarded, the offending vessel's captain apologized, accepted the blame and said he 'didn't realize' he was throwing such a wake, and totally agreed to have his insurance take care of it. (His demeanor and attitude change when someone without a uniform (me) contacted him about it).

The captain of the offending vessel docks his boat about 1 mile up the ICW, and is a licensed captain (according to him), has been in the area for years (the USCG and Sheriff all know the boat), and has full knowledge of the posted signs (NWZ, etc), so can't claim ignorance.


Bifflefan, can I come over to your boat, and take a sledge to your bowrail? I figure you'll just "man up" and repair it out of your own pocket, and not bother me about it. That would be a great way for me to relieve my frustration about this, and you seem as though you wouldn't mind. ;)

I have been boarded 3 times in the last year (2x on a different boat), and all 3 times they tied off to the aft cleat, and the bowrail. Does that make it right? No. But if it's an accepted and ok'd practice (and I have no idea if it is or not) by the CG, then so be it. For the conditions and traffic (calm waters, only one boat during the half hour stop), I don't think their tie-up was irresponsible. This thread wouldn't be here no matter how they tied up if it wasn't for a law-breaking, irresponsible boater. I think that says it all as to who should be ultimately responsible. However, (and I don't think this will be the case), if he or his insurance don't pay for the damages in full, I will pursue the USCG angle, simply because YES, they have responsibility in this matter.



In our area (and there are many on the board that can confirm this), there are many kayaks, jon boats, peddle boats ( :eek: ), canoes, and other tiny craft out at night either fishing or putzing around (hey, it's a tourist area). What if he tossed one of those small crafts, and someone was hurt or worse? This area (known as The Narrows) requires the captain to be cautious during the day (people swim across), and extremely prudent at night. IMO, this guy is not a safe captain, and figures 'My boat's bigger - MOVE!'.
 

NYBo

Admiral
Joined
Oct 23, 2008
Messages
7,107
Re: Responsible for your wake? maybe not...

Good luck, Beefer. We'll be waiting to see how this turns out.
 

TilliamWe

Banned
Joined
Dec 21, 2004
Messages
6,579
Re: Responsible for your wake? maybe not...

...2. Intent has NOTHING to do with it.

Someone understands! Good job.

Excellent analogy of the tow company Smokingcrater. EXACTLY the same situation here. If you have someone tow your car, and they damage it, their insurance pays for it first. Not yours. Sure you can turn it in to your own, but they will DEFINATELY go after the tow company's insurance.

Same in this case. Beefer, turn it in to your carrier, with all the documentation. If their claims staff has any sense, they will pursue subro againt the other vessel and the Coast Guard. Because those are the responsible parties, not you.
 

user64

Seaman
Joined
Apr 5, 2009
Messages
54
Re: Responsible for your wake? maybe not...

Lots of moving parts here. There is a thread on another boating site that has documented the aggressive CG boardings as of late...it drew 90 posts in the first few hours....not a lot of happy campers. First,not sure why the CG chose to board you at night, which is inherently more risky for everyone, unless they had some compelling reason...or (see above reason) Secondly , any boater should knowthat you DONT tie a line to a bow railing (much less a professional , like the CG).
Third; I dont care who ties it there , as the boats operator Im going to insist that they cleat it or I will do it myself. So, I come down on the side of the guys who say it's the CG's problem. Not a lawyer , just trying to be logical. They initiated the stop (their right). They tied it up improperly, which led to the damage. They had the option of doing the following: They had four people on the CG boat..when they board us here, the inflatable drops off two guys, then backs off to avoid EXACTLY the type of incident that happened here...they get the two guys back on when the inspection is over. I think they had a bunch of choices , and the ones they chose didnt work out. If this incident was between 2 private boaters rather than a govt entity I'm pretty sure that someone would be charged with negligence in order to collect for the repairs. I hope that it works out for you..too bad you cant get paid for the aggravation
 
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