Use the Sherman anti-trust act

[DJ]

Re: Use the Sherman anti-trust act

Tree,<br /><br />I think you've got it. There are two sides.<br /><br />One tries on the OPEN market, the other dictates it.<br /><br />40% (that's $40.00) of your hundred bucks goes to government agencies buying Suburbans.<br /><br />They'll buy some hybrids, call a press conference, and make you feel good-change channel.

 

[PW2]

Re: Use the Sherman anti-trust act

_________________<br />Granted. Venezuela can run on ethanol-great for them. Try starting a vehicle on it in North Dakota, in January.<br />_______________________<br /><br />You mean we don't have the engineering capability to solve a simple problem like this? You're kidding, right?<br /><br />________________________________-<br />Granted. We can force companies to make alt. fuel cars. The problem is: Will you buy one? NOPE! The US auto industry is 17M units/year. Alt. fuel makes up less than 1% and they are HARD to sell.<br />_______________________________-<br /><br />That must be why Toyota, and other hybrid producers, are increasing their market share, while Detroit are losing share...<br /><br />__________________________<br />Fact: We have plenty of oil and its derivatives<br />____________________________________<br /><br />And this is why we have an insatiable appetite for mid-eastern oil???<br /><br />_____________________________-<br />Question: WHY do we have more than 18 different blends of gasoline? That is insanity<br />______________________________-<br /><br />Those are not federally mandated, they are local rules, for those that live in metropolitan areas and still want to breathe. Standards need to be different in Chicago and LA than is necessary in Fargo, ND. Come together and get it down to 2 or 3 or so........<br /><br />____________________________<br />Fact: The only, MOST EXPENSIVE, NON-variable, in petroleum costs (consumer) is TAXES.<br />____________________________<br /><br />You have any evidence of this? State and federal gas tax averages about 60 cents a gallon. With gas prices at $3.00, I doubt if they are getting the crude at less than 60 cents, and their profits are high, but not that high.

 

[DJ]

Re: Use the Sherman anti-trust act

PW2,<br /><br />There are only so many BTU's in a certain fuel-pure physics. Emotions beside. Yes we can, will you buy it nope-it's being tried now with DISMAL results. No power equals=no sales.<br />.<br />Foreign companies are NOT making their inroads on hybrids. What about the small SUV from Ford? The Escape. Since it's an SUV, nobody looks at it. That is NOT the market. You're not in it, I am.<br /><br />Mid East oil is still cheaper (EPA Reg's to thank) than our own.<br /><br />We agree, there is a room for ONE Fed Reg. fuel. NOT 18. If it's good for CA, it should be good for ME.<br /><br />Taxes NEVER decrease. However they are invisible to the consumer. There is room for relief on both sides, private and fed/state. But, we'll NEVER see the latter.<br /><br />Back off on the recovery/pumping/drilling/refinery reg's and the problem goes away. <br /><br />The FED's will never back off and let American industry provide a product we need/want. Remember, only American business is bad. Foreign is GOOD. Repeat the mantra.<br /><br />So, those companies will sell to emerging countries like China. Soon they will will rule, and we'll be second/third world, by your (not mine) choosing.<br /><br />BTW, I WANT relief in plywood prices. It's insane. What shall we do about it?

 

[JB]

Re: Use the Sherman anti-trust act

PW2 said, "The way to balance supply and demand is what we learned in Econ 101--Let the price raise to the point where it changes behavior, and reduces demand."<br /><br />This may be the second or third time in history we agree.<br /><br />One of the consequences of increased price would be increased supply. . . shale oil and tar sand oil are there in plentitude, in N. America. Oil is there in plentitude, in Alaska. <br /><br />We can get the first if the price exceeds the cost of getting it out.<br /><br />We can get the second if Congress decides we need it bad enough.<br /><br />There are two changes in behavior from increased price. See below for #3.<br /><br />The technology is in place to start cars on ethanol in ND. Ethyl ether injection for starting.<br /><br />Similar technology starts bioDiesel engines with petroDiesel.<br /><br />Behavior change #3. I have reduced my driving from about 50K/ann to about 12-15K/ann. I am spending quite a bit less at $3.25 than I did at $2.<br /><br />If a car maker offers the equivalent of my ML powered by a commonrail turboDiesel that runs on vegetable oil I will buy it.<br /><br />Thanks to all for the civil debate with no name calling or flaming.

 

[kenimpzoom]

Re: Use the Sherman anti-trust act

I just read an article that said tar sands in Canada will only be producing 3 million barrels per day in 10 years.<br /><br />Of course this is a prediction that assumes the worst. Others predict 17 million barrels per day in the same time frame.<br /><br />Mass transit sucks. The socialists in Europe enjoy them cause that is all they know. Just try to think how much easier it is to do everything you do in a day because you drive a car.<br /><br />Ken

 

[kenimpzoom]

Re: Use the Sherman anti-trust act

One other thing, tx winner is POed cause Exxon, Chevron, BP, and others are posting record profits.<br /><br />The reason these profits are record is because of all the mergers. If you split them back to the small companies the were before, there would be no records.<br /><br />So you would rather pay high gas prices to 20 companies than 5 companies.<br /><br />Also, there are more than 5 companies searching for oil and gas. Ever heard of Kerr McGee? Anadarko, BHP Billiton, etc???? They are the ones making a killing right now cause all they do is drill for oil and gas. Then sell the crude to the "evil" five.<br /><br />Ken

 

[PW2]

Re: Use the Sherman anti-trust act

JB,<br /><br />Periodically we agree once in a while.<br /><br />This topic really frustrates me because of all the incomprehensible arguments from all political persuasions.<br /><br />Either our 60 % dependency on foreign oil is a problem, or it isn't.<br /><br />If you think it a problem, and we need to curtail our dependence (and no longer fund both sides of this war), then the price of oil needs to increase to either make it cost effective for alternative sources of traditional oil (like Oil shale or tar sands etc.) Or alternate fuels, like ethanol, or alternate technologies like hydrogen.<br /><br />You simply cannot argue on the one hand we need to reduce dependence on foreign oil, and on the other lobby for reduced fuel prices. It simply does not compute.

 

[POINTER94]

Re: Use the Sherman anti-trust act

PW,<br /><br />It isn't the oil companies job to find fuels that compete with their product. It is the job of entrepeneurs to do that. And if the government considers it a national security issue, then they can pioneer a new source. Anyone who wants to be a multi billionaire can develop the next fuel for the masses. What is this fixation with the oil companies. They sell OIL. They make less than half of what the government takes in per gallon? How about mandating that oil companies double their profit to drive someone to develop a new fuel? Wouldn't that accomplish your stated goal of making it so hard on consumers that it would drive the country to alternate fuels. <br /><br />This process will evolve. New products will hit the market, fuels and their distribution will grow, and benefits that outweigh the negatives will point to the winners.<br /><br />What could be a greater motivator than to be the man/woman who develops the next great fuel. They would become the richest person in the world. And then we can tax them......

 

[RubberFrog]

Re: Use the Sherman anti-trust act

PW is right. The price of petrol needs to rise such that it makes the alternatives more viable.<br /><br />Personally, I'd rather pay 3.20 a gallon and know my fuel was coming from North American shale/sand-tar/ethanol than pay 2.70 and continue to send money to my enemies.<br /><br />North American fuels keep more money in North America, provide more jobs to North America and reduce the amount of money available for terrorists.

 

[KaGee]

Re: Use the Sherman anti-trust act

Let's me think... The last big break up was AT&T.<br /><br />Phone costs never really decreased, actually rose higher.<br /><br />Choice of service never really materialized. (for me anyway)<br /><br />Government taxes have escalated to over 16% of the phone bill.<br /><br />AT&T is now a conglomoration once again.<br /><br />Government taxes exceed 16% for gasoline.<br /><br />Big oil profits under 7%.<br /><br />I say it's time to break up Big Government. Time for that Hog to get slaughtered.

 

[KaGee]

Re: Use the Sherman anti-trust act

PW2 said:That must be why Toyota, and other hybrid producers, are increasing their market share, while Detroit are losing share...<br /><br />

PW, according to a business report I heard last week, hybrid sales are NOT booming. The report stated Honda was actually going to cut back production, and hold up on plans for newer models. <br /><br />Maybe others more astute than I know more about this.

 

[Haut Medoc]

Re: Use the Sherman anti-trust act

Why are some so insistant on incessantly whining about the tax on gas?<br />The revenue has got to come from somewhere to fund the war & whatever....<br /><br />HC hit the nail on the head with:I dont think its serious compettion, I think its more "you scratch my back and Ill scratch yours"<br />Lets share lobbiest, or as in my Cos deal lets merge our loosing money polyethline businesss and push out the competition...<br /><br />Maybe it is time for our elected officials to get off their duffs & do some law changing...<br />Especially with regards to getting some new refineries online......<br /><br />& don't give me the "treehugger" carp The Repubs been in power 6 years now, plenty of time to make some changes...<br />Those changes will not line the pockets of those who have 'special interests'..... <br />A gas crunch & the resultant rise in price because of diminished capacity only leaves big oil holding all the cards & no doubt some of our elected officials are profiting as well....<br />I suppose this administration could use the "diminished capacity" defense to explain their abyssmal performance to date......<br /><br />Some changes need to be made, all I have seen is 'Status Quo"......JK

 

[imported_Curmudgeon]

Re: Use the Sherman anti-trust act

Personally, I'd rather pay 3.20 a gallon and know my fuel was coming from North American shale/sand-tar/ethanol than pay 2.70 and continue to send money to my enemies.<br /><br />Then you're a fool! Why use up your resources when you can use up theirs, and at far lower cost when excluding the tax stream levied at all levels of the process?<br /><br />Considering government(s) is making the biggest profit on fuel from ground to tank (talk about gouging) and standing in the way of oil company investments in just what you suggest, I'd say it's time for government(s) to get out of the fuel business. Take away profits in industry, and you take away any incentive to reinvest. If you want to keep it home, get government out of the way and let oil companies do what they do best - produce a product from available resources at a competitive price.<br /><br />I listened to Queen Nancy (Pelosi) the other day. She said the dems are poised to make us energy independant in 10 years. Considering it'd take nearly that long to develope any new petrolium supplies or energy sources (not that the dems would let 'em), statements like this should scare the bejesus out of any rational citizen!<br /><br />As a side note, since this is a boating forum, what do you think the fate of the rec boating industry will be when there's an all-out assault on anything that burns/uses/requires petrolium fuel at any point from cradle to grave?<br /><br />We are not Brazil, our demographics are nowhere near that of Brazil, and we have a standard of living far, far above Brazil. Anyone who wants to make this country into another Brazil shouldn't be in the gene pool, much less Congress!

 

[KaGee]

Re: Use the Sherman anti-trust act

Amen, Brother Curmudgeon! Preach it Brother!

 

[RubberFrog]

Re: Use the Sherman anti-trust act

I see who the fool is here. You have a problem with developing our resources?

 

[RubberFrog]

Re: Use the Sherman anti-trust act

Oh... please try to stay above name calling.

 

[JB]

Re: Use the Sherman anti-trust act

Well, first of all, I think the big 5 spend more money developing alternate sources of fuel and energy than the Feds and independent enterpreneurs combined.<br /><br />They are ENERGY companies, not oil companies, Pointer.<br /><br />"Foreign oil" is not all middle eastern oil. More of our "foreign oil" comes from Canada, Mexico and Venezuela than from Iran, Iraq and Saudi Arabia. I think I read that the middle east supplies about 10% of our oil. A lot also comes from Africa, which is dominated by Islam and a source not to be trusted.<br /><br />That notwithstanding there are great advantages to being energy independent. We need to get closeer to that, soon.

 

[RubberFrog]

Re: Use the Sherman anti-trust act

I agree, JB. Along those lines I would be willing to spend more if it would allow us to achieve that dependency

 

[imported_Curmudgeon]

Re: Use the Sherman anti-trust act

You have a problem with developing our resources?<br /><br />Yeah, I do .. because we're not doing much of it. No new refineries, no viable program for shale/sand, no new nuclear plants, and no new oil fields (even though we have access to billions of barrels). You can bet your sweet patoot alcohol isn't gonna solve the problem by itself .. but that's what's gonna get sold to the public by the likes of Queen Nancy. Oh, ethanol is sooo green, and sooo good, and soo anti big oil, and sooo utterly not the answer in and of itself. What I have a problem with is people who buy into this bovine fecal matter just because it sounds sooo good. There, now I feel better..

 

[RubberFrog]

Re: Use the Sherman anti-trust act

Well, I hear what you're saying. I didn't single ut ethanol, it was listed as one of many. Ethanol has a part, just not the whole pie.